Strategic Choice for Great People

[Stalker0]

So after trying out the new GM using a tradition start...I can safely say I will never use the concert early every again

Truth is, until a country has hotels, their tourism output is not that great. The old concert that let you get an automatic familiar....that was effectively a VERY large sum of tourism. This new concert is not a nerf, its an obliteration. Will see if it scales up well in the late game, but early game its GW of music all the way.

What I would recommend is to give the player casting the concert the happiness bonus (and decrease it if needed for balance). Then you might consider concerting for the happiness....giving you a strategic decision. Right now there is no decision early, that early tourism is worthless.

 

[Gazebo]

	-- Musician changes
	UPDATE Units SET OneShotTourismPercentOthers = '0' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_MUSICIAN' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_UNITS' AND Value= 1 );
	UPDATE Units SET OneShotTourism = '12' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_MUSICIAN' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_UNITS' AND Value= 1 );

G

 

[Magil]

	-- Musician changes
	UPDATE Units SET OneShotTourismPercentOthers = '0' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_MUSICIAN' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_UNITS' AND Value= 1 );
	UPDATE Units SET OneShotTourism = '12' WHERE Type = 'UNIT_MUSICIAN' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_UNITS' AND Value= 1 );

Is this a very recent change in the latest version? If so, that may be where the miscommunication is coming from, because I haven't started a game with version released yesterday yet.

 

[tu_79]

What I would recommend is to give the player casting the concert the happiness bonus (and decrease it if needed for balance). Then you might consider concerting for the happiness....giving you a strategic decision. Right now there is no decision early, that early tourism is worthless.

I think the concert can be done in own cities too.
For foreign cities, the current effect.
For owned cities, +6 happiness (or +1 happiness for every 4 pop in city), and spread the tourism among all known civs.

This way we can still use a concert when having domestic happiness problems, even if its tourism is negligible.

 

[wobuffet]

I think the concert can be done in own cities too.
For foreign cities, the current effect.
For owned cities, +6 happiness (or +1 happiness for every 4 pop in city), and spread the tourism among all known civs.

This way we can still use a concert when having domestic happiness problems, even if its tourism is negligible.

Seems like a solid idea to me!

How I'd do it:

• Concert in foreign City: +full value of Tourism with target Civ, +3 Happiness for self and for target Civ
• Concert in own City: +20% value of Tourism with every known Civ, +6 Happiness for self, and +1 to all Opera Houses

 

[Gazebo]

Is this a very recent change in the latest version? If so, that may be where the miscommunication is coming from, because I haven't started a game with version released yesterday yet.

Yes.

I think the concert can be done in own cities too.
For foreign cities, the current effect.
For owned cities, +6 happiness (or +1 happiness for every 4 pop in city), and spread the tourism among all known civs.

This way we can still use a concert when having domestic happiness problems, even if its tourism is negligible.

Requires AI training, so I'm disinclined currently.

G

 

[tu_79]

Requires AI training, so I'm disinclined currently.

G

Pleasy please?

 

[tu_79]

Seems like a solid idea to me!

How I'd do it:

• Concert in foreign City: +full value of Tourism with target Civ, +3 Happiness for self and for target Civ
• Concert in own City: +20% value of Tourism with every known Civ, +6 Happiness for self, and +1 to all Opera Houses

Will it be constant or just for some turns? I was thinking in a 10 turns happiness so you can face a crisis. Why the culture? Never mind, theming with Opera Houses. EDIT: But I fear you can skyrocket culture this way, if every GM increases 1 culture to every Opera.

If it's only for some turns, will AI need training?

EDIT2. On second thought, Happiness is better if it can stock. If it is too much, it can be changed to +2 for self, +2 for the civ where the concert is done (ours included).

 

[Stalker0]

I don't know why we feel the need to give the enemy something with a bulb, its the only GP that works that way currently.

Just give me Tourism and Happiness, simple and easy.

 

[wobuffet]

I don't know why we feel the need to give the enemy something with a bulb, its the only GP that works that way currently.

I'm guessing because it's the only one that targets another Civ! And it's at least a little thematic.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm guessing because it's the only one that targets another Civ! And it's at least a little thematic.

Correctamundo.

G

 

[Stalker0]

I'm guessing because it's the only one that targets another Civ! And it's at least a little thematic.

I would argue the citadel is the most "aggressive" of the bulbs and it doesn't give happiness

When an AI takes your monopoly away 3 turns before founding your corporation (I don't know if they intended to do that, but if so it was brilliant)....I find that a little aggressive

 

[tu_79]

Usually nations are happy to receive famous musicians. The Beatles manage to give a concert in Spain during the dictatorship, and that helped to change things. I think it's very thematic too.

 

[Stalker0]

Usually nations are happy to receive famous musicians. The Beatles manage to give a concert in Spain during the dictatorship, and that helped to change things. I think it's very thematic too.

No one is questioning the theme, its just that now there is 0 reasons to bulb a musician early game. Great Work is better in every possible way.

Now if I got happiness from the bulb, then I would at least consider it....aka strategic choice.

 

[Stalker0]

So trying out a game as Persia to see how the new musicians are doing. Went tradition/aesthetics, with the pursuit of a cultural victory.

Turn 374 so far, and its down to me and Neatherlands, and I've got 30% more to go on tourism. Its the worst possible position for the Netherlands, they were very far away so no trade routes until Refrigeration, no shared religion, and they have an opposing ideology so -50% tourism. Ultimately this is a scenario when you would probably push aggression to take them out, but I'm seeing what pure tourism can do in the new system.

I can say it doesn't feel too strong right now at least from a pure tourism side, the concerts add big tourism but not nearly as much as the old system. One issue I have found is that even though you want great works of music early game (as bulb is absolutely pointless), you don't have slots for them! Tradition gives you 1, and the Grand Temple gets you another one, but after that you can't get any more until acoustics.

It also doesn't seem that I am getting as much tourism from the concert as I'm supposed to. I have 2 GWM, so in theory 14 turns of tourism per bulb. I got a GM recently when I had had 574 tourism steady for a long while. Ultimately I got 12.4 turns of tourism (~7100 tourism), instead of the 14 turns I was expecting.

The other issue continues to be, you build GWM early....and then horde every musician you can until the very end. One to ensure your bulbing the civ that is actually stopping your culture victory, but also you want to avoid giving them happiness. There's no middle ground.

I will say, the one additional strategy element ha

 

[Gazebo]

So trying out a game as Persia to see how the new musicians are doing. Went tradition/aesthetics, with the pursuit of a cultural victory.

Turn 374 so far, and its down to me and Neatherlands, and I've got 30% more to go on tourism. Its the worst possible position for the Netherlands, they were very far away so no trade routes until Refrigeration, no shared religion, and they have an opposing ideology so -50% tourism. Ultimately this is a scenario when you would probably push aggression to take them out, but I'm seeing what pure tourism can do in the new system.

I can say it doesn't feel too strong right now at least from a pure tourism side, the concerts add big tourism but not nearly as much as the old system. One issue I have found is that even though you want great works of music early game (as bulb is absolutely pointless), you don't have slots for them! Tradition gives you 1, and the Grand Temple gets you another one, but after that you can't get any more until acoustics.

It also doesn't seem that I am getting as much tourism from the concert as I'm supposed to. I have 2 GWM, so in theory 14 turns of tourism per bulb. I got a GM recently when I had had 574 tourism steady for a long while. Ultimately I got 12.4 turns of tourism (~7100 tourism), instead of the 14 turns I was expecting.

The other issue continues to be, you build GWM early....and then horde every musician you can until the very end. One to ensure your bulbing the civ that is actually stopping your culture victory, but also you want to avoid giving them happiness. There's no middle ground.

I will say, the one additional strategy element ha

Hordes do not work, as concert value is set at birth.

I think flipping the happiness to be for the owner of the musician makes sense, though. It will give it early-game utility.

G

 

[tu_79]

Hordes do not work, as concert value is set at birth.

I think flipping the happiness to be for the owner of the musician makes sense, though. It will give it early-game utility.

G

I think by horde he means that the first GMusician goes into GWorks, and after you've filled some slots, the rest goes to concert tours. In other words, it's not a valid choice to build a great work late game.

 

[Stalker0]

I think by horde he means that the first GMusician goes into GWorks, and after you've filled some slots, the rest goes to concert tours. In other words, it's not a valid choice to build a great work late game.

No, what I meant was that because you are giving a benefit to your enemy (happiness), there is no reason to concert early on, as the extra tourism doesn't grant that much. Better to hold the musicians until you bomb the heck out of the civ that has the greatest cultural to bring them to influential.

Even if the tourism doesn't increase from later bombs....the happiness is better to give to them later rather than early.

Sounds like G might consider putting the happiness to you, in which case, then there's definitely some advantage to concerting early.

 

[tu_79]

I see. But I still like that you give something to the other civ in return for influencing them. As you are putting it, you'll have to stock GM and maintain them, just because you don't want to help the other civ. In doing so, you're delaying the turn where you become influential, and you need to expend more. But if you give them happiness, perhaps you'll face a stronger enemy later.

With Aesthetics, more happiness is also more culture. A +4 is worth +2 .

 

[wobuffet]

Hm, how about

• Concert Tour can target another Civ (100% of Tourism goes to that Civ) or be expended in your own lands (in which case 20% of Tourism goes to every Civ)
• Each Concert Tour gives a flat +2 to target Civ, whether that's another Civ or yourself
• Additionally, your first Concert Tour gives you (the Great Musician owner) +1 ;
  your second Concert Tour ever gives you +2;
  your third, +3, etc.

?

So even if you don't care about Tourism at all, you might want to invest in Musicians so you can accumulate a lot of Happiness.
Warmongers in particular might be lining up to hire some battle march composers!

Moreover, it has a chance of creating some early- and mid-game balance tension in the Great Musician "Great Work or Tour?" decision; even as a Culture/Tourism-focused Civ, it might occasionally be a better idea to invest in some Happiness at some points in the game if you're not doing so hot in that department.

(Also, I definitely think we should expand the "burning a Cultural GP gets more powerful with more Great Works of that type owned/created" to Great Writers and Artists!)

tl;dr: , , , ...



edit:

One issue I have found is that even though you want great works of music early game (as bulb is absolutely pointless), you don't have slots for them!

This should definitely be addressed, IMO. Maybe add a single slot to the Amphitheater (although that building's pretty well balanced already)? National Monument and/or Circus Maximus?

(I've advocated having no single GW of Music slots for a while now, but I've come aroudn: maybe they're okay as placeholders until they can be themed!)