Strategic Choice for Great People

[Stalker0]

Hm, how about

• Concert Tour can target another Civ (100% of Tourism goes to that Civ) or be expended in your own lands (in which case 20% of Tourism goes to every Civ)
• Each Concert Tour gives a flat +2 to target Civ, whether that's another Civ or yourself
• Additionally, your first Concert Tour gives you (the Great Musician owner) +1 ;
  your second Concert Tour ever gives you +2;
  your third, +3, etc.

?

So even if you don't care about Tourism at all, you might want to invest in Musicians so you can accumulate a lot of Happiness.
Warmongers in particular might be lining up to hire some battle march composers!

Moreover, it has a chance of creating some early- and mid-game balance tension in the Great Musician "Great Work or Tour?" decision; even as a Culture/Tourism-focused Civ, it might occasionally be a better idea to invest in some Happiness at some points in the game if you're not doing so hot in that department.

(Also, I definitely think we should expand the "burning a Cultural GP gets more powerful with more Great Works of that type owned/created" to Great Writers and Artists!)

tl;dr: , , , ...

I don't think we need to make it that complicated. Besides, I doubt anyone would bulb for the 20% to everyone...there is no point. You bulb to beat your strongest cultural opponent, it doesn't matter about the rest.

If you give the happiness to the bulber, than you have all of the strategic decision you need.

1) Should I concert now, giving me happiness but getting very weak tourism

or

2) GWM now, get more culture/tourism....and a stronger bulb later.

Late game is still not a choice, but that is true for many of the bulbs.

 

[Funak]

Didn't G already say that he wont change where the tour is expended because he doesn't want to reprogram the AI? If he did, please respect that, and if he didn't I'm sorry.

 

[wobuffet]

Didn't G already say that he wont change where the tour is expended because he doesn't want to reprogram the AI? If he did, please respect that, and if he didn't I'm sorry.

True, fair enough!

Requires AI training, so I'm disinclined currently.

G

 

[tu_79]

Didn't G already say that he wont change where the tour is expended because he doesn't want to reprogram the AI? If he did, please respect that, and if he didn't I'm sorry.

He can be persuaded if the change merits.

@wobuffet "Additionally, your first Concert Tour gives you (the Great Musician owner) +1 ;
your second Concert Tour ever gives you +2;
your third, +3, etc."
Seems a bit excesive to me. A flat +2 is fine enough. Otherwise you won't ever create a single piece of music. Or make the happiness bonus depend on the number of great works of music too.

 

[Stalker0]

So finally finished up that epic tourism game, at 467 turns probably the longest civ game I've played in a while. Finally got my tourism over the damn Dutch, had to go to war to soften them a bit but I wasn't able to hit them too hard, having a unit on every single tile makes conquest a bit tricky, at least to me.

I actually made it to future tech for the first time in memory.

So at least from one game, musicians were certainly not too strong. But like I said, early on everything went wrong for a culture victory. Got world science initiative, could not get passport through the WC to save my life, Netherlands were so far away I couldn't get trade with them until refrigeration and they had a rocksolid religion, and then of course were hostile and wouldn't open their borders. But still made it work, though I'm sure I could have gotten diplomatic victory instead sooner if I had made a stronger effort for it.

 

[Gazebo]

So finally finished up that epic tourism game, at 467 turns probably the longest civ game I've played in a while. Finally got my tourism over the damn Dutch, had to go to war to soften them a bit but I wasn't able to hit them too hard, having a unit on every single tile makes conquest a bit tricky, at least to me.

I actually made it to future tech for the first time in memory.

So at least from one game, musicians were certainly not too strong. But like I said, early on everything went wrong for a culture victory. Got world science initiative, could not get passport through the WC to save my life, Netherlands were so far away I couldn't get trade with them until refrigeration and they had a rocksolid religion, and then of course were hostile and wouldn't open their borders. But still made it work, though I'm sure I could have gotten diplomatic victory instead sooner if I had made a stronger effort for it.

Had anyone made it into the SS project race? I'm happy that the actual tourism victory took longer than before - it may be a little under-tuned (the musician), but trying to get all VCs to 'fire' around the same time is the goal here.

G

 

[Stalker0]

Everyone had Apollo but no parts built that i saw

 

[wobuffet]

@wobuffet "Additionally, your first Concert Tour gives you (the Great Musician owner) +1 ;
your second Concert Tour ever gives you +2;
your third, +3, etc."
Seems a bit excesive to me. A flat +2 is fine enough. Otherwise you won't ever create a single piece of music. Or make the happiness bonus depend on the number of great works of music too.

Well, one of the points of the suggestion was to make early- and mid-game stacking of Concert Tours effective for Happiness (versus early- and mid-game stacking of GWs of Music effective for Tourism).

The "cumulative effect" way of making early Great People count seems fun, and I think it's worth extending to (1) all the cultural GPs and (2) both Great Works and "burn" abilities, if possible.

 

[tu_79]

Well, one of the points of the suggestion was to make early- and mid-game stacking of Concert Tours effective for Happiness (versus early- and mid-game stacking of GWs of Music effective for Tourism).

The "cumulative effect" way of making early Great People count seems fun, and I think it's worth extending to (1) all the cultural GPs and (2) both Great Works and "burn" abilities, if possible.

I see. So if you just want music for the happiness, you don't ever make a great work, but the happiness is massive (pop music?). If you want them for the tourism, you need to balance works and concerts.

I still think the happiness you are giving is too much. Perhaps add +1 happiness every two concerts.

 

[Stalker0]

Well, one of the points of the suggestion was to make early- and mid-game stacking of Concert Tours effective for Happiness (versus early- and mid-game stacking of GWs of Music effective for Tourism).

The "cumulative effect" way of making early Great People count seems fun, and I think it's worth extending to (1) all the cultural GPs and (2) both Great Works and "burn" abilities, if possible.

I think getting a flat +2 happy is still pretty fun, and I don't think a scaling happiness is necessary. For a civ that needs happiness, +2 happiness is 2% to almost all yields, meaning it naturally scales as the game goes on. The happiness itself doesn't need to scale imo.

 

[tu_79]

I think getting a flat +2 happy is still pretty fun, and I don't think a scaling happiness is necessary. For a civ that needs happiness, +2 happiness is 2% to almost all yields, meaning it naturally scales as the game goes on. The happiness itself doesn't need to scale imo.

If it comes to taste, I won't say wobuffet's is a bad idea, but I still prefer the flat bonus.

 

[wobuffet]

Well, Great Admirals are obviously generated in a totally different way, but they give 2 luxuries or something like that if expended, so I don't think my scheme would be too outrageous a rate of Happiness production.

I'm not sure domestic Concert Tours are worth the extra coding effort though, I guess.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

Had anyone made it into the SS project race? I'm happy that the actual tourism victory took longer than before - it may be a little under-tuned (the musician), but trying to get all VCs to 'fire' around the same time is the goal here.

G

I have written pretty much the same in another thread, but I don't this is right aproach.

Currently, the date from where a victory is possible is inversely proportional to the required amount of interaction with other civs.

Domination:
Extremly much interaction, and extremly early possible as well.

Cultural:
A lot of interaction. You want open borders, traderoutes, you compete for artifacts and some wonders. As a reward for your troubles, victory can come pretty soon.

Diplo:
Some interaction. Mostly competing for city states. Victory usually comes alter that culture.

Science:
Nearly no interaction. In principle, you can win by science without ever having moved one unit outside your borders. On the other hand, this victory comes extremely late.


I think this is a nice balance - the earlier victories can be more easily thwarted by your opponents, but if you opt for a later, and thus safer victory, you can lose to another civ finishing earlier.
I agree that the values were a bit distorted (science was so late that you would often stumble across another victory even if you pursued science), so the recent changes were really good.
But aiming to have all (peaceful) victories at the same time would favour science the most.

 

[Gazebo]

I have written pretty much the same in another thread, but I don't this is right aproach.

Currently, the date from where a victory is possible is inversely proportional to the required amount of interaction with other civs.

Domination:
Extremly much interaction, and extremly early possible as well.

Cultural:
A lot of interaction. You want open borders, traderoutes, you compete for artifacts and some wonders. As a reward for your troubles, victory can come pretty soon.

Diplo:
Some interaction. Mostly competing for city states. Victory usually comes alter that culture.

Science:
Nearly no interaction. In principle, you can win by science without ever having moved one unit outside your borders. On the other hand, this victory comes extremely late.


I think this is a nice balance - the earlier victories can be more easily thwarted by your opponents, but if you opt for a later, and thus safer victory, you can lose to another civ finishing earlier.
I agree that the values were a bit distorted (science was so late that you would often stumble across another victory even if you pursued science), so the recent changes were really good.
But aiming to have all (peaceful) victories at the same time would favour science the most.

I agree, but it has been grossly disproportionate as of late. I'd like to make it slightly more symmetric.

G

 

[tu_79]

Ok, seems reasonable. But last version the difference in number of turns required is huge. We could aim for something like 20 turns between each victory type.

I think this difference comes from the time required for those interactions. Winning in turn 300 may take double time than a victory achieved in turn 450. Actually, cultural victories don't have so many interactions in terms of invested time, and this could be the reason everybody feels it's too easy/soon. Wobuffet may be right in that most AI neglecting culture is the reason for that earliness. It leaves only a couple of hard to influence civs, targets for our musicians.

 

[Stalker0]

I do think the musician change will have a big impact. The only musician's ability to get you to familiar immediately gave you a tremendous jump in the tourism race. Now you have to earn that straight up, so its more of an uphill battle.

The other thing to remember about culture victory is....so much of it is outside your control. Your ability to trade and have open borders is heavily dependent on the AI. If he goes to war with you, nothing you can do but take the big loss to tourism.

With diplomatic, while you have more direct competition, you have much more control over your winning of that condition.

 

[Gazebo]

Ok, seems reasonable. But last version the difference in number of turns required is huge. We could aim for something like 20 turns between each victory type.

I think this difference comes from the time required for those interactions. Winning in turn 300 may take double time than a victory achieved in turn 450. Actually, cultural victories don't have so many interactions in terms of invested time, and this could be the reason everybody feels it's too easy/soon. Wobuffet may be right in that most AI neglecting culture is the reason for that earliness. It leaves only a couple of hard to influence civs, targets for our musicians.

That's never going to happen - trying to match times via turns is impossible. I'm talking more about having the pacing feel similar, not actual 'there's 20 turns until a tourism victory and 21 turns until an SS victory...what's going to happen!?' because that's not a repeatable phenomenon.

G

 

[tu_79]

That's never going to happen - trying to match times via turns is impossible. I'm talking more about having the pacing feel similar, not actual 'there's 20 turns until a tourism victory and 21 turns until an SS victory...what's going to happen!?' because that's not a repeatable phenomenon.

G

Statistically you can measure the likeliness of getting one victory before another and the actual time required for it. But we aren't going to measure it so precisely, we go more on feelings. If after several games I am under the belief that I can win my game culturally 20-30 turns before I can win it diplomatically with no interactions (sometimes faster, sometimes slower), then it is in a nice spot upon Der_Zorn_gottes.
On the other hand, interactions are expected for AI trying science or diplo. If it doesn't interact, then there's no possible way for it to win. You expect that cultural civs have a good little army to stop warmongers. You expect that diplo civs have that army too, and that it uses its position in the WC to delay warmongers and cultural civs. And you expect science civs to have everything above and bother every other civ. If every civ had some good units to prevent warmongers, domination victory should actually come later. If diplo and science civs use their abilities to stop cultural wins, then cultural wins should arrive later too. So, in the end, if every civ is playing correctly its game, every victory type should come approximately by the same turns, although that turn may differ from game to game (the more interactions, the longer the game).

Again, this is a matter of feeling and actual invested time. My last Rome game took me almost two weeks, since I can only play a couple of hours a day, maybe three. I finished around turn 300. Most of the time was expent moving non automated workers, non automated explorers and bringing new units and garrisons to conquered cities, who refused to go straigh without disturbing my other garrisoned units. The AI doesn't have a chance when we go domination, but that's a very long game for me.

EDIT: Right now, it seems that AI is not playing the counter game effectively, at least in terms of culture defence.