[MoO] Strategic games in MOO2 (classic or mods)

[Rocco.40]

I had some more observations about my strategic mode testing. First is that my ships have 0 combat speed. I don't think this is an icemod problem but I thought I'd mention it none the less. When I get trandimensional my ships do get 4 combat speed but nomatter the drive, all my ships have 0 combat speed no matter the tech level or equipped drives. I know combat speed drops with heavily outfitted ships but I never had ships with 0 combat speed in tactical combat. Perhaps this is intended in strategic? Ships aren't getting the beam defense they should is my only concern. *Edit* I made a doom star, it was packed with modules immediately after construction with 11 combat speed. This made it many times more deadly than a titan starting with 5 modules and 0 combat speed. When I stole inter-phased drives, dooms went to 13 combat speed and titans 2. However newly constructed dooms and titans went back down to 11 and 0 combat speed.

Another interesting thing about ships and new tech is that if I have an old titan that has seen many new developed technologies, it will continue to outfit itself with those technologies. Inertial stabilizers, fast missile racks, displacement devices, etc until it has so many modules they scroll off the display box! This sure seems to make them dangerous but once destroyed and replaced, the new ships will only have a few of the best modules. Shouldn't existing ships not be allowed to keep stacking on modules until they become super ships?

Here's yet another issue with strategic you might be able to get around to someday. The advanced techs. They do absolutely nothing in strategic. No miniaturization of anything or the like. It would add something to extra long games as rare as they are if each level could have some impact on the game.

I noticed to yesterday that this 0 combat speed is the case in all versions of MOO.
It is likely intended to be that way, as strategic combat resolve does not work with combat speed.
It uses Beam Defense however and I believe to have found a table that governs that (but I can't be sure).
This table gives basic Beam Defenses as follows:
FF 50
DD 40
CA 30
BB 25
TT 20
DS 15
Platforms -10

About the ship updates: maybe another player of strategic knows how this is supposed to work?
The way you describe it, it sounds like there might be some bugs present.

 

[Rocco.40]

-I was nearly certain ground combat wasn't factored into strategic combat, but what if I'm wrong? Strategic space combat is a foggy area where you don't really see the exact numbers of how much a given tech tips the scales, you just have to guess and hope you're right. If ground combat had a subtle affect on space combat, I wouldn't be surprised. I had a theory it might but have no idea how to check how much a given technology or racial trait really affects automatically resolved space combat.

You can use the cool little program called CORION if you like to run some test games.
With CORION you can change a lot of things of your savegames, like your race stats, techs, maps leaders etc.
With it, you can make a save run a combat and then modify the save to have your troops outfitted with plasma rifle, personal shields etc. and see if it makes a difference.

Check Nirran's page:
http://moo2.nirran.com/

 

[Rocco.40]

Anti Missile Rockets:
This shouldn't be available in strategic combat. It will never be equipped on any vessel after being developed. This isn't an icemod issue but yet another lack of love paid to strategic combat by the original designers.

Just fired up a strategic to check this and surely I cannot see A-M Rockets appear in the designs.
edit: Strike. I have found a Doom Star will have Ant-Missile Rockets fitted if no better techs are available.
Strange mechanic.

I also noted that ECM Jammer, Fast Missile Racks, Intertial Stabilizer will all be fitted on a frigate together with 1 Laser Cannon once the techs are available.
This is 45 space consumption on a 25 space frigate! Strategic really follows a different mechanic than Tactical here.

The advanced techs. They do absolutely nothing in strategic. No miniaturization of anything or the like.

Also, after running a tech path of fusion rifle, tachyon, neutron scanner the number of lasers in a ship stays the same and the concept of weapons miniaturization does not exist at all in Strategic games.

 

[Rocco.40]

Just building some basic knowledge atm coz I haven't seen descriptions of strategic on the web and I am surprised to find how little I actually know about this game type:

I noticed a bug when you have ECM-Jammer and invent Multi-Wave ECM Jammer.
In this case the already existing 2 frigates got both specials on the ship, which should not be possible. Newly built ships do not get this.

I am just quickly assuming now that this is related to my earlier observation of the code in the exe being shaky when it comes to auto-ship-updates for strategic games.
This might explain your observation of specials running of the info screen... as it only happens for already existing ships.

edit: Ship info screen is also bugged for drive updates. Ship should have 0 combat speed, which is always true for newly buily ships no matter which drive you have.
For existing ships, the invention of a new drive will lead to a +2 value for combat speed and hence an increase in Ship Defense as well.
Thus, 3 frigates that are built in different moments of the game can have 0, +2 and +4 combat speed.
There are instances, when your fleet is far away from your own system that these numbers do not change in the ship info screen.
It might very well be that in actual combat resolve, this is factored in correctly.
But it is not easy to test and I am unsure if we can rely on the ship info screen.

Cost of ships in classic MOO2:
FF 30
DD 105
CA 375
BB 900
TT 2250
DS 5000 ~ 6000 not sure why there is variation here
Doom Star design is weird as well and is not in line with the other ship classes

Observations about Megafluxers:
I haven't tested this fully but it gives 50% more beam weapons on a ship (rounded down), which is an entirely different mechanic from the +25% generic space in tactical.
This increase in weaponry does not cause ship build cost to go up!

Transporters tech is not used on ships, which makes sense to me as there will be no boarding in strategic and is also the reason that Troop Pods are not in the game.
edit: Security Stations, which are a default tech for a.i. ships in classic MOO2, are not used at all in strategic.

I have also not seen Energy Absorber being fitted on ships.

Pd mounts are not used in ship design, just the regular mount only. I see Heavy mount only used in Doom Stars on the ship build screen, not on the actual ships.

 

[Rocco.40]

RECAP

Played some more test games and have more certainty now on the workings of the various meachanics.

Ship Design:
- There is no fixed ship space as in tactical, rather there are fixed design sets.
- Ships get a set design of weaponry, which will upgrade when new techs are available.
- A frigate will have 1 beam, destroyer 2 beams, cruiser 2 beams 1 missile/torpedo, 2 bombs, BB has 4 beams, 2 missiles/torps, 1 special weapon, 5 bombs.
- When you invent Fusion Beam, the Lasers are replaced with the exact same # beams. For bombs and Missiles the same is true.
- There is no miniaturization in strategic.
- Doom Star ship design looks different from other size classes.
- Ships have a fixed cost (except Doom Star, looks like some bug), no matter the design.

Weapons & Specials:
- In a Pre Warp game, you get Lasers for free. (fitted on ships before they are researched)
- Battle Pods are not in the game, but Megafluxers are and increase the # beams on a ship by 50%
- Anti-Missile rockets are not used, except in some cases on a Doom Star. As Doom Star design is shaky to put it mildly, it seems that A-M Rockets are effectively not used.
- Energy Absorber is not used.
- Transporters and Security Stations are not used.
- Warp Dissipator is not used. Makes sense as ships never retreat.
- In ICE I have already brought Warp Interdictor back in the game and took Warp Dissipator out (was probably switched by accident).

Shields:
Shields function normally in Nebulae. Hard Shields are not used in strategic combat.

Screen info:
There are multiple locations where you can get ship design info on screen:
Ship Classes in the build screen, Ships in the build queue, Ship info screen (right click a ship)
These info's are not always consistent, and can provide wrong information. The most reliable info seem to me the ship info you get for a specific ship the same turn it is built.
- Ship Info can show a higher combat speed and higher Beam Defense, but these info's are incorrect.
- Ship Info can show a lot of specials on the ship, more than 8 even causing an ugly screen make-up. This happens to already existing ships after more and more specials are researched.
This info shown on screen is simply incorrect. Somehow the automatic update of screen info is broken.
- I think these screen bugs have no influence on actual combat.

Ship Combat
- Only regular mount weapons are used. Pd and Heavy do not play a role in combat.
- There is no boarding of any kind in combat. I am quite certain that marine strength does not play a role.
- Drive technologies do play a role, as I have clearly seen different outcomes in test battles with different drives. As expected, better drives leads to a lower loss of ships. Thus drives enhance the basic Beam Defense (table in above post).
- There are no combat rounds, which explains why Auto Repair Unit is not in the tech tree.
- Combat is resolved as a 1 round strength comparison between the ships.
- Fast Missile Racks and Hyper X Capacitators are used in ship design. They double your resp. missile and beam strength.

 

[Dukinson]

Combat speed:
I've had doom stars that have 17 combat speed. I do believe they boost beam defense but I'll look more closely. It's rather odd how newly constructed ships are weaker than the old timers. If you can keep a feet alive, each ship will bristle with so many modules that they will scroll off the text box. When the computer gets a large fleet like this, it's terrifying.

 

[Rocco.40]

Combat speed:
I've had doom stars that have 17 combat speed. I do believe they boost beam defense but I'll look more closely. It's rather odd how newly constructed ships are weaker than the old timers. If you can keep a feet alive, each ship will bristle with so many modules that they will scroll off the text box. When the computer gets a large fleet like this, it's terrifying.

Before writing my recap above, I did a few tests with regular ships [frigates-battleships]. I haven't tested with Doom Stars, I have only observed that the way Doom Stars are auto-updated (= what we get to see in the info screens) is different from the other ships and also Doom Star cost can have an unexplained variation. These observations are not reassuring that the game mode is working the way it was intended.

As I said above, my take on it for now is that the ship info screens are bugged and it has no influence on actual combat. If however I am wrong here and you are right, than this is such a huge bug, that it disqualifies the entire Strategic mode as a game option in MOO2.

 

[Dukinson]

As I said above, my take on it for now is that the ship info screens are bugged and it has no influence on actual combat. If however I am wrong here and you are right, than this is such a huge bug, that it disqualifies the entire Strategic mode as a game option in MOO2.

Doom stars are strong but a large fleet of titans has still wiped out my dooms stars. For the most part the text box is accurate and I believe its 100% accurate. It doesn't destroy strategic gameplay just because doom stars have some extra ship defense. I wouldn't have played strategic games for over 10 years if I felt it was broken.

My understanding is that the more free space you have on a ship, the more combat speed it has. Perhaps most ships go way past this limit and lose their combat speed and therefor their bonus combat speed and even get dropped to 0. Doom stars may have so much space that they keep their combat speed.

 

[Rocco.40]

Doom stars are strong but a large fleet of titans has still wiped out my dooms stars.

Well, if the Titans had stronger weaponry and armor, then why would this not be possible?

For the most part the text box is accurate and I believe its 100% accurate.

For the most part the text box is most definitely not accurate. Pls. read my comments on screen info in the recap post. Note also that you observed the following:

...my ships have 0 combat speed ... When I get trandimensional my ships do get 4 combat speed but nomatter the drive, all my ships have 0 combat speed no matter the tech level or equipped drives. I know combat speed drops with heavily outfitted ships but I never had ships with 0 combat speed in tactical combat. Perhaps this is intended in strategic? Ships aren't getting the beam defense they should is my only concern. *Edit* I made a doom star, it was packed with modules immediately after construction with 11 combat speed. This made it many times more deadly than a titan starting with 5 modules and 0 combat speed. When I stole inter-phased drives, dooms went to 13 combat speed and titans 2. However newly constructed dooms and titans went back down to 11 and 0 combat speed.

Another interesting thing about ships and new tech is that if I have an old titan that has seen many new developed technologies, it will continue to outfit itself with those technologies. Inertial stabilizers, fast missile racks, displacement devices, etc until it has so many modules they scroll off the display box! This sure seems to make them dangerous but once destroyed and replaced, the new ships will only have a few of the best modules. Shouldn't existing ships not be allowed to keep stacking on modules until they become super ships?

Here's yet another issue with strategic you might be able to get around to someday. The advanced techs. They do absolutely nothing in strategic. No miniaturization of anything or the like. It would add something to extra long games as rare as they are if each level could have some impact on the game.

So first of all, the combat speed issue: in strategic there is no combat speed. It does not exist. This is also the reason that Augmented Engines are not in the tech tree. The combat speeds you see in the ship info is simply false data. The ship info screen is bugged. Whenever you invent new tech the screen is not updated properly. It adds +2 combat speed to the info's of existing ships but it should have stayed at 0.

Then about a ship class getting all kind of modules fitted on the ship. When I saw ECM Jammer and Multi-Wave ecm's fitted on one ship it started to become clear that also the specials section data of the ship info is false. Note also that in strategic combat there are no multiple versions of one ship class. It actually works like Master of Orion 1: stacked ships. There is only 1 design per ship class, no matter what you see on your screen.

Then about miniaturization: it also does not exist in strategic, simply because ship designs are fixed. A frigate will always have 1 beam. This in turn leads to the next topic: there is no such thing as 'free space' on a ship. There are only fixed designs. The relation you describe between combat speed and beam defense only exists in tactical. No need to worry about beam defense due to the absence of combat speed though. Ships get a fixed beam defense number (also posted above) that can be improved by inventing new techs.

It doesn't destroy strategic gameplay just because doom stars have some extra ship defense.

The point about disqualification was that if some ships are stronger than other ships of the same class simply because they have been flying around a longer time, than that is THE huge bug that destroys gameplay.

 

[Dukinson]

There seems to be some confusion here. Let me attempt to clear it up. First let me start by saying I have read every post in this thread.

Well, if the Titans had stronger weaponry and armor, then why would this not be possible?

They didn't. They simply had superior numbers. Infact most games my technology is superior by the time I acquire doom stars as by that stage I have quite the spy network in operation. An example of numbers would be nothing crazy like 10vs100. Something closer to 10vs40. They'd lose many but ultimately I've lost many battles like this. The doom stars have quite an advantage but nothing terribly above tactical mode. Infact I would say it's more even than tactical considering I couldn't design those doom stars.

So first of all, the combat speed issue: in strategic there is no combat speed. It does not exist. This is also the reason that Augmented Engines are not in the tech tree. The combat speeds you see in the ship info is simply false data. The ship info screen is bugged. Whenever you invent new tech the screen is not updated properly. It adds +2 combat speed to the info's of existing ships but it should have stayed at 0.

Then about a ship class getting all kind of modules fitted on the ship. When I saw ECM Jammer and Multi-Wave ecm's fitted on one ship it started to become clear that also the specials section data of the ship info is false. Note also that in strategic combat there are no multiple versions of one ship class. It actually works like Master of Orion 1: stacked ships. There is only 1 design per ship class, no matter what you see on your screen.

I'm not trying to brag when I say this but I want to establish some credibility. I have played thousands of strategic games. I have had tens of thousands of battles and perhaps more. While I couldn't see what was behind the curtain of code, I have tremendous experience in observing the outcome of battles. I would note the outcome of one battle, load back, develop a tech, and see just how the battle changed. Some techs changed little, some changed lots.

So. Does combat speed exist? Not in the sense that you move your ships in battle in any sort of way. Does it add combat speed that adds material ship defense alters the outcome of battle? Absolutely yes. There is simply no question as I've seen it change battles in my favor many times now. Enough to know it's not the random seed changing.

Are the ship details of a constructed ship accurate? Yes! Every module you see there, the ship defense and offense acquired by that tech, even modules that have no measurable effect in the text box (like lightning field). They ALL add to the ships prowess in battle. There are no illusions in that ship detail box.

Are the old ships really more powerful? Yes 100%, I'm certain. Ofcourse it's a bit wonky how old ships accumulate specials but those bonus modules are all contributing to the ships ability to win battles. I have sent a fleet of my new ships to a battle, reloaded, and sent my old ships to that very same battle and watched them perform much more positively.

The point about disqualification was that if some ships are stronger than other ships of the same class simply because they have been flying around a longer time, than that is THE huge bug that destroys gameplay.

And yet I thoroughly enjoy strategic even after playing so many games. What got me on your mod was initially an annoyance with food replicator costs, not because I found strategic so very broken. I can only attempt to change your opinion on that matter by citing experience but I certainly cannot force it. This can actually be an interesting dynamic, even if nonsensical, that keeping a fleet alive makes it more dangerous as times goes on. The computer has the very same dynamic on its side. I think it's fun but that's just me. Just tell yourself that the crews trick out their ships better because they've been around longer. If you can't fix this one, I wouldn't call it a deal breaker, but that's up to you.

Look, Rocco. I get the impression you have a strong desire not to divide your energies between strategic and tactical. I think some original designers probably did something much the same, strategic was more of an afterthought and has some unusual dynamics which were likely hastily constructed. This is your mod, how you craft it is entirely your decision but I still think it's entertaining even if paid little attention to strategic previously.

 

[Dukinson]

For the most part the text box is most definitely not accurate. Pls. read my comments on screen info in the recap post. Note also that you observed the following:

I exaggerate slightly here and perhaps mislead you. The distance between a doom star and a battleship is greater than the distance between a battleship and a titan. Rather than "many times" maybe its around 3 times stronger. I have engaged 2-3 titans before and lost that mighty doom star. Considering the advanced cost of a doom star, this might not be so outrageous. I thought titans could use a little more love in the module department but perhaps that not something easy to code.

 

[Rocco.40]

So. Does combat speed exist? Not in the sense that you move your ships in battle in any sort of way. Does it add combat speed that adds material ship defense alters the outcome of battle? Absolutely yes. There is simply no question as I've seen it change battles in my favor many times now. Enough to know it's not the random seed changing.

Do you mean ship drives here? Coz inventing a new ship drive will increase beam defense and thus alter the outcome of a battle.

Look, Rocco. I get the impression you have a strong desire not to divide your energies between strategic and tactical.

On the contrary actually. Since you came around asking questions about strategic I have spent more time experimenting with it, then in all 18 years before
If we try to lift the quality of this strategic mode just 1 level higher in ICE, that would be really cool for the game imho.

 

[Dukinson]

Do you mean ship drives here? Coz inventing a new ship drive will increase beam defense and thus alter the outcome of a battle.

Yes I apparently thought it but didn't say it.

It's odd and I can't explain it, but old ships outfitted with new drives actually get the combat speed they should from those drives and in turn receive a boost in ship defense. A side note, trans dimensional ships always have at least 4 combat speed and rightly have 20 ship defense added.

 

[Rocco.40]

Just completed a few combat tests in a Nebula;

- Shields function normally in Nebula without Hard Shields.
- Hard Shields can be visible in Ship Info screen, but in combat resolve they are not used at all.

I will remove the tech from the tree in next ICE iteration.
My assumption for classic MOO2 is that the Hard Shields were kept in the tree to prevent an empty tech field, as also Cloaking Device and Stasis Field in that same field are not used in the strategic game mode.

 

[Dukinson]

Hm I was a little shakey on the hard shields. I've had only a small number of battles in nebulas as I play huge galaxies. I had only one battle in recent memory that seemed like the nebula stripped my heavy shields and gave the battle to the enemy, but I couldn't be sure on one battle. The problem is, shields themselves don't seem to have quite the effect on a battle in strategic as they would in tactical so it was always hard to pinpoint whether hard shields made a difference in the first place. It was one of the few modules I never researched on purpose.

How did you test their effectiveness? They may not change anything in a nebula, but do they not still increase shield defense?

 

[Rocco.40]

Did several test setups. In the most conclusive one, I had modded Hard Shields to block 9 damage instead of 3, which combined with Class III Shields should block 12 damage. The battle outcomes were exactly the same as the ones with only Class III Shields. I redid the same battles with Class VII shields (both with and without Hard Shields) and all battles clearly went much more in my favour, where again no difference between the scenario's with or without Hard Shields.

A tech listing that I have found in the code was reason for these tests as Hard Shields were missing from that list.
Again, it is surprising how much game mechanics differ in strategic. The printed game manual spends less than half a page on strategic and the only real fact that is mentioned in there is also incorrect
It states: "The losing side suffers 100% casualties. The winning fleet might also be damaged, but at least one ship (or monster) always survives."
In my combat sims however, I have seen a number of occasions where both parties lose all ships and nobody wins.

 

[Dukinson]

Ah those sound like solid results. I think the only part of that manual section which is accurate is that your ships can be damaged and require repair. Ofcourse, as you are likely aware, the manual and the strategy guide had many inaccuracies.

 

[Rocco.40]

Funny that you should mention the strategy guide.
I have just ordered a 2nd hand copy and it is underway as we speak.
Have never read or seen it before.

 

[Dukinson]

It was inaccurate by the time they released the game. You should get a laugh or two.

 

[vmxa]

The Moo2 guide is short on details and long on generalities.