Strategy for Science Victory in 140 Turns or less

How would this strategy differ on an island plates map? How would you play with Indonesia on an island plates map to get a a fast SV? Would you build their unique improvement for the extra production, gold and food from water tiles?

When should I start running the campus research projects?
 
Would you build their unique improvement for the extra production, gold and food from water tiles?
I played them last night, their UU gives great food, 1 prod and gold is not enough to be of value. It's very easy to grow as Indonesia but for fast SV normally you stay small in each city. It may be you can snowball your pop to make it great for SV but I cannot see it.

When should I start running the campus research projects?
apart from a few cities with other needs like Big Ben, most cities are there to get campuses and then run projects. That's it, yes you can go for more CH but at the expense of science.
 
Just how many commerce hubs would you be building in a 15-20 city empire? If you aren't building them do you put a second district in your minor cities or just go with the campus and push projects? I've hit a plateau of ~T200 finishes in my science games and I'm starting to think that the reason why is I'm building too much unnecessary stuff.
 
Just how many commerce hubs would you be building in a 15-20 city empire? If you aren't building them do you put a second district in your minor cities or just go with the campus and push projects? I've hit a plateau of ~T200 finishes in my science games and I'm starting to think that the reason why is I'm building too much unnecessary stuff.
I don't see how you can get Lily gold levels without at least 10 CHs. Mind you I'm plateaued at 221 so...
 
Presumably you want to run the +100% comm hub building card too... or no?
For 3CH? You get better value out of Merchant confederation which I believe is one of lilies cards.
You have to understand Lily relies on war while say whacker relies on CH but at a lower end priority. A lot can depend on great zim also and say a card like 25% extra gold off continent.
Remember gold is needed at the very end, not in the middle
 
For 3CH? You get better value out of Merchant confederation which I believe is one of lilies cards.
You have to understand Lily relies on war while say whacker relies on CH but at a lower end priority. A lot can depend on great zim also and say a card like 25% extra gold off continent.
Remember gold is needed at the very end, not in the middle
Not for 3 CHs, no. I just see these HUGE treasuries talked about pre-Big Ben and strats that rely on buying GSs to get really fast times and wonder if that is viable with only three CHs and one bank...
 
Lily is also pretty clear that they use the farms into neighborhoods trick to get the needed gold.
 
Not for 3 CHs, no. I just see these HUGE treasuries talked about pre-Big Ben and strats that rely on buying GSs to get really fast times and wonder if that is viable with only three CHs and one bank...
What do you do with Copper? Sit on it all game to squeeze the money per turn and harvest it at the end for a ton of money. How much gold can you get from chopping 10 copper mines late game?
I saw lily chastising himself in a post once for wasting a turn before selling his horses, every turn counts, and every sale counts. GPT give better value than lump sum unless you are about to go to war with them.
Do you send your traders on internal production hauls? What a waste of time, 2-3 production or 10-12 GPT externally.
There are plenty of ways to make money, do you spend it all? Buy a university? Or chop it in.
Just why are you buying that tile?
If your pop grows to 7 you may need an extra ED that costs 1GPT to maintain... and why did you grow to 7? Instead at 6 put everything on production tiles, if you will still grow send some to a library. Stop your growth where you do not need it. That 1 person in your lib is making close to 3 pop of science and that production spent on an ED could have gone to a science project.
That coliseum not only maintains your civ without ED at no maintenance cost but also gives a big boost to culture.
 
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On the topic of gold economy: getting 3CDs and 2 markets out (even before campus districts) is an essential move. Not for gold though, but rather for the culture.
Personally, I tend to get 4. Most often the order is one in my first and second city (even though the campus will be placed first), and two-three cities where CD is placed first (and campus later).


What happens later and how many CDs you need is heavily dependent on the map and difficulty. I will post some general guidance that does not depend on any particular CIV:

Squeezing gold out of AI:
Deity/Immortal:
Here the AI will be rocking with ridiculous amounts of gold. If you manage to finish warmongering at around T100 or so, before you meet other CIVs you can count on being able to supplement your income with often ridiculous trade deals. If you keep your cities small (and maybe have a Colosseum) amenities will not be a problem even with a large number of cities. AI peace deals will also be very lucrative and can provide you with a super push. So keep trading and re-trading luxuries & strategics, relics and great works (if any) - and safely plan to get at least ~100GPT in the end game / probably more.

Emperor and below:
Here, the AI will rarely have much gold (or will be borderline bankrupt) for most of the mid-late game. They will have some gold early on, so key lump trades will provide you with a needed push (e.g. gold for builders to chop settlers, battering rams etc). Otherwise you cannot count on the AI much, if at all. In any case, keep trading and selling everything.

Rely on Commercial City States:
Normally you will have at least one commercial city state, usually two, and if there's three thats amazing. Make sure you cultivate commercial city states, finish quests (many of which will come naturally) and get 3 then 6 envoys - so you're looking at: (4+8 x #CD GPT) per city state. The more commercial city states you find, the less own CDs you need.

Where the traders come from:
Obviously, from CDs you build. But how many you need to self-build also depends on how many traders you can get otherwise:

Traders from AI:
For whatever reason, AI very rarely prioritises CD. I dont think I ever captured one in my initial expansion. In the late game expansion, sometimes the AI surprises you with one. On average, expect no CDs built for you.
Harbours however are a different story: of course it depends on the map and other civs, but a quick expansion on another continent will usually yield at least 2-3 harbours if you're lucky 4-5. In any case, In any case these extra harbours should be treated as a supplement (that can make you a bit more relaxed in the late game).

Traders otherwise:
*You will get 2 traders from the merchant republic. As a rule of thumb, in my quick games this usually brings the number of available trade-routes to 7-9 (with 5 already filled) which means its the stage where you're still developing/chopping your empire.
*Traders from Great Merchants. In any case, expect at least one. On lower difficulties - you may easily get 3 GMs that expand your trade rout capacity. On higher, usually not. This is a great balance, as it somewhat compensates for the fact that AI does not have good gold for trades.

And now the most important piece of advice:
Get your traders out immediately.
This means, except maybe for the first trader, all other traders must be chopped! In my experience, and if you follow the general SV strategies, one trader will be immediately finished in exactly one chop. Even in a city with one population.
I believe that making traders slowly in all your cities is the biggest mistake possible. There are always places around the map where you can harvest a trader. So plan for it - 'count' the woods/stone in your cities. Decide where you will be chopping traders (it may be one-two cities, or it may be scattered) and keep your builders available and on hold.

I'll give an example: any city where you will not be pursuing a third district is good enough. Or, if you examine the Gorgo save (linked) Once I captured England, I got a 2 charge builder. Used the builder to chop another builder and then virtually chopped every wood/deer england had (six) to put out 6 traders (3 I believe to fill the the harbour slots England left, and 3 to finish my own as they became available). This also means I totally ignored these cities. Never produced anything there except repairing the monuments (didn't have the tech to fix the harbour as I generally don't research Astrology and Celestial Navigation up until the very end (and even then, only if I want to harvest Crabs - and even then, I do it through pre-selecting these and finishing them in one turn with any of the lump science GS (e.g. Charles Darwin etc).
If you're stuck, buy a builder in a weak city. Lets say you pay 500 gold for a 5 charge builder. And net 5 traders at turn 90 or so (made up number). These traders will be running 5 x 50 turns = 250 trade/moves. If each brings you 2 gold you are break even.

Micro-manage cities for gold and science production:
I am rather tardy with this, and tend to do it haphazardly (its cumbersome). But ideally, it needs to be done.
So open up the citizen screen (especially for all your weaker cities, cities on the coast, cities captured from the AI later and cities that should not be expanding further) and manage the citizens. Normally, I put at least one citizen as a specialist in the campus district, for weaker cities, ignore the production and put the rest on gold tiles (if ay). There may not be many gold tiles (map-dependent) but often there will be some. Its ok if these cities dont have any production.

Maximise gold from Trade Routes:
Obviously, as in the original post, almost all traders need to go to commercial city states. Save 2-4 (depending) to grow/supplement your capital (or spaceport city) and your Big Ben city a bit. Be strategic with the first few trade routes you send - you need to ensure these will place some good trading posts to expand coverage. Use the continents lense and try to maximise the number of traders not on your original continent.

So how many traders do you need:
Depends on all of the above.
In best case scenario - with lots of Commercial CS and higher difficulties, you could get by with just 8-10CDs and a few captured harbours for a total of 12-14 trade routes. On lower difficulties, you definitely need more (close to 20 traders) (so around 15 CDs).
If you go for Great Zimbabve, then likely less (but I'm still yet to do a GZ sub 140 victory).

How to play your cards policies:
This is a tough question. You need to find the balance. It depends on the difficulty, overall number of traders, gold you get from AI or otherwise, wildcard slots etc and importantly your science/culture progress.
In general, never use the +2 gold card. Its just not worth it.
Certain cards are a must mid game: (+1 culture for every district, 100% science from campus district buildings) always. The 100% science adjacency bonus card depends on the map. If you have good adjacency, keep it. If not - dont. Do a quick ballpark: how much extra science per turn does it give? How much is that in 50 turns? On some maps, I keep it all the time. On some maps, I ditch it because at one point (e.g. turn 100 or so).
Envoys? How are you going with city states? Are you in need for envoys. In the early-mid game the (first envoy counts as two) and (+2 influence points) are essential. Late game, definitely take out (+2 influence points) (normally i slot in the +2 each for every city state you are suzerain). If all is going well, for some time, your main (and often only gold card) could be the (+1 gold from each envoy). Find the balance depending on circumstances.
So in most games, unless you're trying to compensate science etc, you could slot the (+4 gold +1 faith card). At one point (if its worth it on the map) slot the 25% gold from cities not on your original continent.

In any case, don't take any of the advice above to heart. These are all general tips (lines of thought) but the key to a quick SV is adapting your gameplay to the map and circumstances. And importantly not wasting gold and production on things you dont need.
 
I played them last night, their UU gives great food, 1 prod and gold is not enough to be of value. It's very easy to grow as Indonesia but for fast SV normally you stay small in each city. It may be you can snowball your pop to make it great for SV but I cannot see it.

apart from a few cities with other needs like Big Ben, most cities are there to get campuses and then run projects. That's it, yes you can go for more CH but at the expense of science.
Thanks.

What about trying to get a fast SV on Island Plates map? Especially if you don't have an AI or CS on your starting island. The main reasons I'm asking are the occasional GotM on this map type and the frequent Turncast games were we're on this map type.
 
On the topic of gold economy: getting 3CDs and 2 markets out (even before campus districts) is an essential move. Not for gold though, but rather for the culture.
Personally, I tend to get 4. Most often the order is one in my first and second city (even though the campus will be placed first), and two-three cities where CD is placed first (and campus later).


What happens later and how many CDs you need is heavily dependent on the map and difficulty. I will post some general guidance that does not depend on any particular CIV:

Squeezing gold out of AI:
Deity/Immortal:
Here the AI will be rocking with ridiculous amounts of gold. If you manage to finish warmongering at around T100 or so, before you meet other CIVs you can count on being able to supplement your income with often ridiculous trade deals. If you keep your cities small (and maybe have a Colosseum) amenities will not be a problem even with a large number of cities. AI peace deals will also be very lucrative and can provide you with a super push. So keep trading and re-trading luxuries & strategics, relics and great works (if any) - and safely plan to get at least ~100GPT in the end game / probably more.

Emperor and below:
Here, the AI will rarely have much gold (or will be borderline bankrupt) for most of the mid-late game. They will have some gold early on, so key lump trades will provide you with a needed push (e.g. gold for builders to chop settlers, battering rams etc). Otherwise you cannot count on the AI much, if at all. In any case, keep trading and selling everything.

Rely on Commercial City States:
Normally you will have at least one commercial city state, usually two, and if there's three thats amazing. Make sure you cultivate commercial city states, finish quests (many of which will come naturally) and get 3 then 6 envoys - so you're looking at: (4+8 x #CD GPT) per city state. The more commercial city states you find, the less own CDs you need.

Where the traders come from:
Obviously, from CDs you build. But how many you need to self-build also depends on how many traders you can get otherwise:

Traders from AI:
For whatever reason, AI very rarely prioritises CD. I dont think I ever captured one in my initial expansion. In the late game expansion, sometimes the AI surprises you with one. On average, expect no CDs built for you.
Harbours however are a different story: of course it depends on the map and other civs, but a quick expansion on another continent will usually yield at least 2-3 harbours if you're lucky 4-5. In any case, In any case these extra harbours should be treated as a supplement (that can make you a bit more relaxed in the late game).

Traders otherwise:
*You will get 2 traders from the merchant republic. As a rule of thumb, in my quick games this usually brings the number of available trade-routes to 7-9 (with 5 already filled) which means its the stage where you're still developing/chopping your empire.
*Traders from Great Merchants. In any case, expect at least one. On lower difficulties - you may easily get 3 GMs that expand your trade rout capacity. On higher, usually not. This is a great balance, as it somewhat compensates for the fact that AI does not have good gold for trades.

And now the most important piece of advice:
Get your traders out immediately.
This means, except maybe for the first trader, all other traders must be chopped! In my experience, and if you follow the general SV strategies, one trader will be immediately finished in exactly one chop. Even in a city with one population.
I believe that making traders slowly in all your cities is the biggest mistake possible. There are always places around the map where you can harvest a trader. So plan for it - 'count' the woods/stone in your cities. Decide where you will be chopping traders (it may be one-two cities, or it may be scattered) and keep your builders available and on hold.

I'll give an example: any city where you will not be pursuing a third district is good enough. Or, if you examine the Gorgo save (linked) Once I captured England, I got a 2 charge builder. Used the builder to chop another builder and then virtually chopped every wood/deer england had (six) to put out 6 traders (3 I believe to fill the the harbour slots England left, and 3 to finish my own as they became available). This also means I totally ignored these cities. Never produced anything there except repairing the monuments (didn't have the tech to fix the harbour as I generally don't research Astrology and Celestial Navigation up until the very end (and even then, only if I want to harvest Crabs - and even then, I do it through pre-selecting these and finishing them in one turn with any of the lump science GS (e.g. Charles Darwin etc).
If you're stuck, buy a builder in a weak city. Lets say you pay 500 gold for a 5 charge builder. And net 5 traders at turn 90 or so (made up number). These traders will be running 5 x 50 turns = 250 trade/moves. If each brings you 2 gold you are break even.

Micro-manage cities for gold and science production:
I am rather tardy with this, and tend to do it haphazardly (its cumbersome). But ideally, it needs to be done.
So open up the citizen screen (especially for all your weaker cities, cities on the coast, cities captured from the AI later and cities that should not be expanding further) and manage the citizens. Normally, I put at least one citizen as a specialist in the campus district, for weaker cities, ignore the production and put the rest on gold tiles (if ay). There may not be many gold tiles (map-dependent) but often there will be some. Its ok if these cities dont have any production.

Maximise gold from Trade Routes:
Obviously, as in the original post, almost all traders need to go to commercial city states. Save 2-4 (depending) to grow/supplement your capital (or spaceport city) and your Big Ben city a bit. Be strategic with the first few trade routes you send - you need to ensure these will place some good trading posts to expand coverage. Use the continents lense and try to maximise the number of traders not on your original continent.

So how many traders do you need:
Depends on all of the above.
In best case scenario - with lots of Commercial CS and higher difficulties, you could get by with just 8-10CDs and a few captured harbours for a total of 12-14 trade routes. On lower difficulties, you definitely need more (close to 20 traders) (so around 15 CDs).
If you go for Great Zimbabve, then likely less (but I'm still yet to do a GZ sub 140 victory).

How to play your cards policies:
This is a tough question. You need to find the balance. It depends on the difficulty, overall number of traders, gold you get from AI or otherwise, wildcard slots etc and importantly your science/culture progress.
In general, never use the +2 gold card. Its just not worth it.
Certain cards are a must mid game: (+1 culture for every district, 100% science from campus district buildings) always. The 100% science adjacency bonus card depends on the map. If you have good adjacency, keep it. If not - dont. Do a quick ballpark: how much extra science per turn does it give? How much is that in 50 turns? On some maps, I keep it all the time. On some maps, I ditch it because at one point (e.g. turn 100 or so).
Envoys? How are you going with city states? Are you in need for envoys. In the early-mid game the (first envoy counts as two) and (+2 influence points) are essential. Late game, definitely take out (+2 influence points) (normally i slot in the +2 each for every city state you are suzerain). If all is going well, for some time, your main (and often only gold card) could be the (+1 gold from each envoy). Find the balance depending on circumstances.
So in most games, unless you're trying to compensate science etc, you could slot the (+4 gold +1 faith card). At one point (if its worth it on the map) slot the 25% gold from cities not on your original continent.

In any case, don't take any of the advice above to heart. These are all general tips (lines of thought) but the key to a quick SV is adapting your gameplay to the map and circumstances. And importantly not wasting gold and production on things you dont need.
Thanks for this great rundown. My main issue seems to be that on Emperor I am unable with 12-15 cities to generate enough GPP to get through the GSs in time to complete the spaceport and space projects before, so far, T221. Making fewer mistakes and getting lucky with AI proximity and City States could I think get me to T200 assuming enough forest to chop. But to do it reliably and go quicker, buying GSs (and building one or two wonders which I never otherwise do) must be the way to go for me, as my warmongering is fairly poor. Thanks.
 
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What about trying to get a fast SV on Island Plates map? Especially if you don't have an AI or CS on your starting island. The main reasons I'm asking are the occasional GotM on this map type and the frequent Turncast games were we're on this map type.
Then you need a frigate rush. The extra combat from jongs is ok and makes them last a little longer, their extra movement is great as is their ability to ferry settlers very fast. So all in all the will speed things up once they are out and they will last a little longer. The trouble is I'll get quads out there earlier and frigates are pretty damn good anyway, it's mainly the ferry speed of jongs I like so maybe a frigate army and a Jong r 2 for ferrying... or a line for the exploit.
My trouble with kampungs is I really am not interested in their food value and their prod and gold is not a lot. Yes god of the sea and Auckland but they both come at extra cost and commitment. A lot of these island plate maps are shallow water anyway, traversable by troops. You do not even have to use ships.
I am glad to be proven wrong.
 
Jongs are Frigate replacements, so your comment about having a frigate army and a Jong or 2 didn't make much sense. So Indonesia gets their frigates at mercenaries instead of square rigging, which is earlier and much easier to get all the boosts to get to them than is is to get all the boosts to get square rigging.

During the last Turncast game on Island Plates (last Saturday), I went for religion with Indonesia and took Warrior Monks. Warrior monks are only 35 combat strength to start with 3 movement (1 less than swordsmen). Their promotion line on the left side gives them 2x flanking, +10 combat strength in all situations (45 total now), I forget the 3rd promotion, and the top is +15 combat strength in all situations (60 total). I had these guys formed up with the Jongs while running Oligarchy. This allowed me to quickly take cities and get the Jongs to +1 range and the Warrior Monks to 60 total combat strength fairly quickly.

The main reason I went with Warrior Monks was so I could run the +100% naval unit production to build the Quadreme fleet and faith buy the Monks for the mercenaries boost. With Indonesia's +2 faith per city on the coast and the holy sites (and their buildings) this went quickly.

BTW, Quadremes cost 240 faith and Jongs cost 600 faith and the Monks cost 200 faith. To me, 200 faith for a unit that gets to 60 combat strength through promotions and no other investment is a great deal especially when it's a 3 movement unit.
 
Jongs are Frigate replacements, so your comment about having a frigate army and a Jong or 2 didn't make much sense
... no, doesn;t make sense to me either!.... sorry I was off thinking about using another civ and then somehow got all merged.
140 gold to upgrade to a Jong is pretty cheap as well.
Fair enough on the warrior monks, only game I played with them was a peaceful religious game, I'll give em a go on island plates and see what happens. Just not convinced on the warrior monk front. getting more than 2 upgrades on an island map is hard.
 
@civtrader6 Thanks for the guide! I see the benefits of delaying districts to get settlers out first. Are there cases you would finish one district to get conscription faster, especially if the AI is slow to build them?
 
Getting civics eurekas is the point, not conscription.
So yes, build that district, an encampment is a good one as there are a few eurekas for it

In fact for this eureka I never build that district myself but tries to capture a city-state with holy-site/encampment instead...

If there isn't such cs I'll not go for this eureka...
 
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