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Strategy for Science Victory in 140 Turns or less

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by civtrader6, Oct 15, 2017.

  1. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Would it be fair to say your science speed was the limiting factor? If you identify the limiting factor you can understand how to speed it up.

    I would only have 3, certainly place one and build it when the university in that city is done but that will be at the cost of a science project and if science was your limiting factor.

    This is one reason why you only go the rainforest and artifact ones as democracy will halve the amount you spend on great people. Also more projects and earlier buildings means more GP efore you have to spend but I do not believe this is as important.

    It also seems culture may have been despite building the colosseum. The colosseum is more about the culture it provides than the happiness. Culture is also about getting to the double science adjacency card and more importantly the double science building card as well as earlier government and therefore card bonuses. Getting as many eurekas as possible really helps.

    For cities with just a campus did you place specialists in the library and university?
    You need to chop in campuses ASAP and get the CS up to 6 ASAP. This is a big jump in science time. Libraries are pretty cheap and easy to slot in after than. Its the universities you need to get in and goind as soon as you can.

    Did you get the markets and trade routes in before the eurekas?
    Chopping in pyramids is handy but not the end of the world.
     
  2. antimony

    antimony Warlord

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    In case it has been unnoticed, there is a gauntlet on the Hall of Fame forum for fastest emperor pangea SV, any leader. Could be a good venue to extend this discussion and try fast SV with different leaders.
     
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  3. remconius

    remconius Deity

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    Thanks again for the great tips.

    So I need science for a science Victory... that figures

    And so I will prioritize campuses in all cities but also monuments to get culture. Will this give me a enough culture to get to democracy on time. In my game I was not there by turn 200. So I really need a lot more culture. Getting the Colosseum early will help. Not sure if they’ll be enough.

    Am I correct to assume that it is key to get culture first and then campuses?
     
  4. antimony

    antimony Warlord

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    Monuments in every city and meritocracy card should be enough, Coliseum of course is a big plus, and as Victoria said it's important to get relevant Eurekas.
     
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  5. remconius

    remconius Deity

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    I was re-reading the initial post.

    It is suggested to have a large wave of builders for fuedalism and only chop districts afterwards.
    Why is that?
     
  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    A Normal builder has 3 chops
    With a 30% off card it's 30% cheaper.
    After feudalism with a card it's 5 builds which is 66% cheaper.
    You can always build the builders up tonfeudalism 30% cheaper and leave them 1 turn left until feudalism but it seems better to just get as many settlers out before then instead.
     
  7. civtrader6

    civtrader6 Warlord

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    Some great advice here, and @Victoria is pretty much spot on.
    I want to elaborate further on Culture. Simply put:
    The key to a quick science victory is strong early/mid game culture and monument first in (almost) every city. (Also, the key to strong culture is also strong and quick warmongering).

    In order to reach democracy in time and make the best use of your government policies you also need to hit all culture eureka's possible. Never hard-build what will naturally be boosted (there are some exceptions). This also means you need to be switching constantly (especially in the early game) while waiting for the boosts.

    A good understanding of the CIVICS tree is essential. So lets elaborate on the progression:
    EARLY CIVICS:
    The first aim is to hit PP at the 40-50 turns mark. The sooner the better:

    * Builder first to improve 3 tiles will boost Craftmanship (cost 40 culture). The Agoge card then makes for efficient first army building. The boost gives you 20 culture at a time when you are making 1.X culture per turn. This is huge.
    * Delay Foreign Trade (40 culture) until your scout/army stumbles on a Foreign Continent. In majority of the games, this will happen fairly quickly. In some games however, it will not happen (That a loss of 20 culture!).
    * Plan your early war so to capture a city with a district around T30-40 to boost State Workforce (70 culture). On most maps (and Emperor or above) this is possible. On some (e.g. GoTM25) the terrain is too hard. In that case, one option is to use Agoge overflow to chop and speed up your first district (Digression: sell your luxury, purchase a builder, speed it up etc - adapt, find a way). Alternative and good strategy is to go for an encampment in the capital (which gives too boosts, and is great for T150-160 victories, but IMO too slow for T140). Another way is to pillage (see below).
    * Early Empire (70 culture) (6 pop) will come naturally and quickly if you push out an early settler. It will likely come too late if you don't.
    * Political Philosophy (110 culture). On some maps you're just lucky. On others the scout is essential. On average, it is possible to meet 3 city states. Sometimes declaring a war to a distant neighbour on higher difficulties will reveal the third city state as well.
    *Mysticism (pantheon) and Military Tradition (barb outpost) should come naturally. Mysticism can be delayed, but make sure Military tradition is hit.

    As you can see, even if you hit all the boosts, for early PP you need to somehow earn around 185 culture. To do so: at a minimum: monument first in your second city. If you steal a settler, monument first in your 3rd city too. If there is cultural city state perfect. Try to get their quest if possible. Struggling with a specific boost? Don't forget to pillage! Pillaging a quarry early gives you a huge push. Whenever possible, pillage enemy mines and quarries. If they have a builder to repair it great. If they don't, still pillage (there are exceptions of course)...

    At the point you reach PP you should already be conquering enemy cities. Most will have a monument. Repair the monument first.

    MID-GAME CIVICS:
    There are two pathways here: my regular one - which is essentially belining toward Merchant Republic. And the other one that has an excursion to Monarchy (which I'm exploring now thanks to @Lily_Lancer advice, although this one requires an even bigger focus on culture).

    * Games and Recreation
    (research construction). This is one civic that I rarely boost. Boost is still possible. In games where you are going for an early encampment (and thus prioritising/boosting bronze working) and you are lucky enough to mine a resource and lucky enough to have an enemy build a water mill for you (and or able to sell resources to get the 320 gold to buy one) you can beeline construction and get this boost (I feel so happy when I do). If any of the above is problematic, ignore construction and neglect this part of the tree. If however you decide to go down this path, please note that construction will still take lots of turns to research (this may delay researching Commercial hubs, and may clash with early CD placement/settler rush for the first 2-3 cities). While on this path, make sure you're researching Drama and poetry, so as not to waste turns. Most likely however, you will have to hard research Games and Recreations.

    Lets put it like this: your priority is the top of the tree. Certain favourable circumstances may allow you to make temporary excursions toward the bottom of the tree. If this is not the case, keep on top.

    * After Games and Recreations, you need to go into Military Tactics (encampment) and Defensive Tactics (war against you).
    (Digression: I believe it was possible to get a boost to Defensive Tactics if a City State declares war on you, but maybe i remember it wrong. In any case, not boosted after the last patch). On average, you will get a boost to one of these. Rarely both and often none.
    If you do get boosts you just save 4-8 turns of culture, which can give you time for an excursion in the bottom of the tree later. If not, keep on the top of the tree.
    If you took the encampment opening in the early game great. If not - trying to start and build an encampment at this point will not be optimal. City state encampments in general come too late for this boost. In any case I tend to half research both, hoping I can still hit an enemy city with an encampment or that someone may declare (hooray joint wars haha). When hope is lost, hard research it. Tip: unless you had a super fast PP (e.g. turn 41), don't venture to the bottom of the tree waiting for this boost.

    Ideally, when you research the first one, you need to slot the 30% builders card and start on the builder wave for feudalism. Personally, I never build farms and captured cities will give you a boost anyway. Make sure to properly time your wave.
    * Feudalism at ~T70 and a whole bunch of builders is good for quick victories. T80 is so so but acceptable. Sometimes, I venture into the bottom part of the tree here for a bit, so as to maximise the number of builders (given the escalating builder costs).

    Thats it for now. Will expand on this later.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
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  8. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    A little tip on this, my scout passes a CS with a quarry it may well be worth going to war in the ancient age just to get the 25 culture while I tend to leave it if it's a mine.
     
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  9. remconius

    remconius Deity

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    This is really great advice.

    I will have another try soon.

    Focusing more on culture and chopping districts after feudalism.

    Strategy will be:
    1. Scout/builder/settler
    2. Slingers/warriors and warkarts to capture cities
    3. All cities build/chop builders, monument and settlers
    4. At feudalism chop 5 charge workers and build colosseum
    5. Chop 3 CDs and all campuses
    6. Focus science and develop capital for space production
    7. Get/buy GS
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  10. Turbofish

    Turbofish Chieftain

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    Very interesting and useful concepts brought up in this thread so far.

    I've recently been trying for SVs on Immortal with Germany. Typically on Large Continents maps. The past 2 games I've been getting them around T235 (unfortunately, both times without any Science city states), and of course looking at the title of this thread I still have a long way to go.

    So far I've been able to hit most eurekas, expand and conquer up to the point where i have around 15 cities before I begin to turtle. From reading this thread, it seems that those of you managing well below T200 SVs have a lot more than 15 cities, and seem to build relatively few districts. With new cities, I typically get a monument, campus, followed by the traditional Hansa/CH diamonds on rivers between 2 cities (or more if geography/placement allows), whereas it seems like most here don't bother with anything other than campus+library+university, then the rest of the cogs go to campus research grants or builders.

    Other possible issues are my choice of wonders. I got Oxford, Ruhr then Big Ben, with Ruhr obviously in the planned Spaceport city, which ends up having anywhere between 120-150 cogs per turn by the end of the game. Spaceport and projects are completed partly by chops, hard production, and great scientists/engineers. My bottlenecks are more towards gold for GSs rather than science. Whereas the fast SVers do Pyramids for the extra builder charge, Colosseum for..amenities and culture? And some do Great Zim for the gold.

    It also looks like I don't utilise enough builders or maximise chop overflows using the policy cards. I also settle based off city positioning for Hansa diamonds by rivers instead of good chop locations.

    Some questions I have are:

    Am I building too many districts? My view is that the extra prod from the Hansas will translate to extra science when the city goes into campus research grants mode. But I haven't done the math and it probably isn't worth it from what I'm reading here.

    The strategies here, do they provide sufficient military for defence in a Immortal/Deity environment? Personally I'd prefer a strategy which gives me more security and works more often, vs a risk of getting overrun but a reward of faster SV.

    Are Oxford or Ruhr worth building for a fast SV? And are Pyramids/Colosseum that important?

    I typically don't go for religion past the pantheons. Does that slow me down?

    For governments, I typically go Classical Republic, Merchant Republic, then Democracy. Some of you go Monarchy for the wall chop overflow. Is the culture cost of detouring to Monarchy worth the chop overflow?

    How early should I start spending the faith/gold to buy up all the remaining GSs (assuming all techs required for all space projects will be ready shortly), given that there is a chance that I will run out of gold before getting Carl Sagan? Do you guys spend the faith/gold assuming that Sagan will be the last GS, or the first of the information era GS available?

    Any Germany specific fast SV strategies you guys can think of? I quite enjoy playing Germany for SVs for some reason (probably familiarity)

    Thanks! :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  11. civtrader6

    civtrader6 Warlord

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    Hi @remconius, I'll try to give you some pointers and share my thoughts on your points. Hopefully you'll find it useful:

    I believe small maps are not suitable for quick science victories. I would suggest playing standard as there will be more space to expand into. Remember, you need a lot of cities quickly.

    Off the bat I'd say your conquer was too slow.
    Focus on getting the war-carts out as quickly as possible. War-carts do not have up-keep, so you can keep pushing them out for quite some time. For Sumeria this means you don't have to rely on Conscription (-1 unit maintenance) so you essentially have a free slot. (This for example allows you to have both +2influence points, and double-first envoy card, and focus on getting CS quests).
    Now - you really need to act quickly and plan your conquest wisely. At emperor difficulty you should be looking to have your original (reasonably sized) land-mass fully conquered by Turn 70-80. Aim to hit before they put walls up.
    On emperor, a rough guide (again for a reasonably sized continent) is that you don't even need to upgrade war-carts into knights. On immortal you will have to. So focus on better wars.

    Ah religion, I love when I kill the AI before they get the prophet or found a religion. But if not, don't sweat about it.

    I've tried the 1st district production pantheon. Initially I thought it would be a good choice if Goddess of the Harvest is not available - but my testing indicates its not worth it. The goal in quick science victories is to expand fast and place (but not build) your districts immediately. As such, many of your first districts will cost less than a library.
    I'd say, if Godess of the Harvest is not available, then it depends. If you got your pantheon early enough (like really early) then maybe Culture from Pastures can make a big difference early on (although maybe not). Personally, I'd go for the Divine Spark. As this will give you good returns between T70-T120 (roughly gives you a few more mid game GS which can provide useful boosts, lets you enjoy the benefits of merchants (e.g. envoys are really handy), and maybe a great writer or two etc...).
    Depending on the map however, I may choose God of the Forge (if available) before the Divine Spark. This one is especially good if you've got multiple cities building chariots (applies more to other civs than Summeria).

    Cities wise good. But again, how quickly did you settle these? I tend to finish all settlers before T70. Go for quick conquest and then chop more settlers in AI cities.

    At T100 you need at least 10 traders. On emperor you cannot rely on trading with AI for good gold income. So more CDs are necessary.
    On thing to note is that at this point, sometimes, in some late cities, harbours can be a better investment than commercial hubs (to make use of the 40% discount on production costs etc).

    Colosseum is great. As a rough guide you need to put it out somewhere between T75 and T85. Cover as many cities as possible. As @Victoria said, this is important for culture, not amenities (although they are handy). If you plan early, then maybe your third or forth settler can immediately on a central location with 3-4 tiles. Doesn't need fresh water. If properly timed such entertainment hub will be cheap.


    This is by far the biggest flaw. Culture is the number one priority. I've expanded on this in another post.

    Finally, your own takeaways are good. It takes time to get a feel and adapt your play to be more optimal, so good luck.
    One thing however, if you've already built 10 settlers, focusing on getting 5 more out is probably not worth it. At this point settlers will cost 300+ production, and are not likely to get there in time to make a difference. Better way would be to focus more on conquest.
    Besgt wishes
     
  12. civtrader6

    civtrader6 Warlord

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    For 1: experiment. Builder/Settler is more powerful. Don't forget the scout though.
    For 2: with Summeria: slingers only for eureka's. and eventually to hit the closest city state/enemy city, while you're pumping warcarts. Rest, warcarts.
    For 3: chop settlers as early as possible. Be strategic. Keep in mind that every settler increases the production cost by 30 - so plan wisely where you make these chops. And at this stage your chops bring in say 35-55production (times 1.5). I put all my gold in buying builders at this stage (T40-T65) to chop more settlers.
    As a rule of thumb, unless exceptionally, don't use 3 charge builders to chop 3 charge builders - but sometimes its ok if it will give you a settler advantage.
    For 5: chop 3 CDs first. (I always do 4). But build and chop more CDs. I've posted more on gold economy in this thread.
     
  13. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    @Turbofish
    Big cities you ideally avoid apart from Big Ben and getting the pop in the campus tile helps so you probably are not doing that enough.
    War can be a tough one, with the wrong map or if things just go wrong you do not get the cities fast enough but T225 indicates another issue, and lack of science city states is a big one. You have 15 cities, each should have a campus which with 1 science city state equates to 60 science per turn, that's a lot to not have when you only have 15 cities also.

    Last game my spaceport was on Tundra, I will try to place it early and build a monument to its borders will spread to enough chop but all those lovely tundra forests are worth around 180 prod at the end without any % so 10 chops and spaceport is finished. You need 4-5 more chops for projects but that's not hard to get. No spaceport city production means no Ruhr valley.
    The great engineers can help, Goddard is great but also the eurekas and with a cheap and extra district then sure... but the buildings still take too long to be of great value production wise. So think, if at T80 you were to build a workshop, would it really be worth it. I agree for projects but 15% of prod is not brilliant science.... a workshop is a lot of effort for something that will make 0.3 science per turn during projects ... the hanza is cheaper than the workshop and has great adjacency sonis much more value... make districts not buildings.... and that hanza next to a campus may give the campus +1 science.

    Oxford is handy for a eureka and the techs t gives. It's not vital and I have never had enough chops to finish it, I always have other work for my builders.

    You do not spend faith gold until the last turn you need to, and ideally chop all crabs and bronze on the turn before... with Big Ben finishing the turn after.
     
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  14. Hactar

    Hactar Chieftain

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    What do you build in your cities? In particular, I'm wondering if you run Campus Research Projects and if so, when. Or do they all have such low production (since you're not improving any tiles) that it's a moot question.
     
  15. AnonymousSpeed

    AnonymousSpeed Pink Plastic Army Man

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    Should you expect to put any turns into actually building districts, or should it all come from chops? If so, what do you build between placing districts and finishing them? Presumably a monument, but what else? Units?
     
  16. civtrader6

    civtrader6 Warlord

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    Depends on the route you take. Monument first in every city. Then builder. You need to time all your builders with feudalism. Most cities will be able to churn out one. If settled too late and production is low - don't make a builder in that particular city but just work on the monument. If both are finished, work on the district but finish it with chops (as it takes time to get the builders in place).
    If you're making the excursion into Monarchy - then slot in 100% production for defensive buildings and start making walls up to 1 turn before completion (which you will chop when you get monarchy).
    Almost all cities will be giving you out a campus + lib + uni like this. Some will have enough chops and food to host a second district (commercial hub). For 4 cities, commercial hub should be the first district actually. Some cities will have enough wood for you to chop traders. For one central city entertainment complex (then Colosseum) should be the first district (sometimes also the only district) in that city as all chop tiles will go into Colosseum.

    Now army building is a separate question. I'll try to expand on it a bit more.
     
  17. i_imperator

    i_imperator Imperator

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    How would this strategy vary with cyrus and his immortals?
     
  18. civtrader6

    civtrader6 Warlord

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    Only played Cyrus twice, one domination and one scoring one 151-2 turns science victory (Immortal difficulty). Would have to give some thoughts as to how to maximise his abilities for a faster victory.
    Strategy I employed (which may not be the most effective) made some but rather limited use of the immortals: so I went 3 slingers into archers, 4-5 warriors into immortals as first army. Second army was chariots upgraded into knights. Civics priorities as with any other civ. Science-wise prioritise bottom part of the tree to get the immortals - hitting eureka's in the process. This does slightly delay the Commercial Hub research/placement - but Cyrus compensates though not having to cede cities. I do remember leaving both Australia and Spain with one city and then abusing the surprise war ability to essentially keep perpetual +2 movement points. I did build a few pairdaeza's (?) in otherwise production poor cities too boost culture and hit Suffrage in time.
    This was all pre-patch, so the problem with immortals was that they needed an accompanying mele unit. Also, playing on immortal difficulty makes immortals rather quickly obsolete for the mid-game (T70+) and distant neighbour city capture - hence requiring you to build a second army.
     
  19. i_imperator

    i_imperator Imperator

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    And would you still go builder>scout>settler>archers with this plan? I have an interesting map as Cyrus on emperor with Alexander nearby. And could you elaborate more on how you were able to get 3 slingers 2 warriors and 6-8 war carts? Im having trouble getting the slingers and warriors out by turn 30/40

    I tried your Sumeria map (the emperor one) but I keep getting declared on by kongo before I can get my third slinger out.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  20. civtrader6

    civtrader6 Warlord

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    If you want to share the map I would have a look. The key is to always adapt.

    I'll just highlight again why builder/settler is an essential start: It strengthens the production in the capital to allow you for quicker army building. It ideally hits a few key early eureka's (on average at least some of: Horseback Riding, Masonry, Wheel etc). Second settler adds important extra science, culture (through monument focus), hits eureka for Early Empire in time, and in the late-early game can help by locking cheap districts (it may be your Big-Ben city if overall strong, or, you can chop it bare for more army and 2-3 extra settlers. If you do chop it bare, it will still give you a campus and a CD as these will be locked cheap before T40) etc...

    Back to Persia, Cyrus:
    Keep in mind that to make full use of the immortals, you need to research Bronze Working (80 science) and Iron Working (120 science).
    This is a lot of science. Cost wise - it is similar to going for horseman, but horses-eureka's are easier and more consistently achieved. The issue is, once you get horseman they can capture cities rapidly. Immortals, not so quickly (although +2 movement compensates, for some time). They are also costly to upgrade and gold will be scarce (which may delay purchasing builders for speeding up settlers).

    With this said, the best progression would be something like: Builder/Settler. Boost Craftsmanship for a cheap army. Army should start with at least one slinger (to boost Archery, and 3 total archers). Get lucky with barbs close by to boost Bronze Working. Get lucky with 1st/2nd city placement to boost Iron Working.
    Without these boosts, your army will come too late. My guess is that, for these timings to work you would also need a scientific city state.

    All in all, this is why I believe that Persia, is not an A tier civ for super quick (T140 range) science victories, but should allow for a quick science victory (T150 range).

    Firstly, you need a strong capital with some good production tiles improved (or purchased). Not every map/capital can offer you this.
    Secondly, streamline your progression through the civics tree so as to hit Craftsmanship and Military Tradition as early as possible, and only build Slingers/Warriors with Agoge (50% production on units) and Warcarts with Manouver (50% production on Cavalry). With a good capital (but not super good) and Agoge, slingers should take 2-3 turns to produce. Once you get to warcarts it should be around 3 turns.
    Thirdly, if possible squeeze a builder to chop a Warcart or two.
    Fourthly, the army building is not done by T30-40. At T30ish you should ideally already have 3 slingers and 1-2 warriors and a boost to archery. Then war-carts should be joining one by one.
    If you examine the map I've attached here (or the Gotm10 map) the first CS target was actually attacked by 2 archers and 1-2 warriors (3rd slinger wasnt upgraded yet) with the first warcart joining just in time to siege the city. Also, once I started building the army, the capital was at 4 pop and I've micro-managed the tiles to put a production focus which stopped growth (but was worth it).
     
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