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Strategy Objectives - Mid Term

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Provolution, Dec 10, 2008.

  1. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I think a shire will be far more useful. Also once we build the GL we will get lots of Great Scientists quite quickly.

    I also don't think they will beeline for philo - if i was them I would be afraid that we would bulb it and would not want to risk it. If they did go for philo (and managed to get it before we we can bulb it) I still think that is ok. I would much rather they spend time getting a religion instead of than getting machinery or construction.
     
  2. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Some other reasons that we want to Bulb philosophy:
    1. We need Philosophy to get Liberalism first, which gives us a free tech :goodjob:
    2. With Philosophy we can switch to Pacifism civic which will give an additional boost to GP production. If we get Philo before we go for prophets, we can speed to great Prophets much faster.
    3. We can build Angkor Wat (3 priests + Great Person points toward Great Prophet) A religious wonder like Angkor is perfect for a multi religion civ like us.
    4. We want at least one religion in the Shymkent because this is our commerce city. We want Wall street in Shymkent not Pavlodar and a religion will enhance the :commerce:. Pavlodar is a production city not a commerce city.

    FYI, In my tests, religion spreads to city 6 without a missionary. Sometimes Judaism, sometimes Confu, but every time city 6 gets religion (see the screenshots in tactics thread).
     
  3. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    If we are heading for Pacifism, we need an even bigger industrial capacity, in case we want to mobilize from a small to large army at short notice. Industrial capacity is security.
     
  4. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Sommers

    I also want to bulb philo but think it makes more sense to get it after a prophet. We will get plenty of great scientists after we build the GL.

    Running Philo as a religion could be useful - but we will want to run OR for a while 1st to build buildings.
     
  5. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I agree on getting the Prophet first, that religious superbuilding is key.
     
  6. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I moved the discussion here :king: because we are having a great focused talk about the treaty in the Cavalieros embassy thread and I don't want to put that discussion off topic.:)

    To respond... I think our disagreement about the "grabbing land" issue is based on our different opinions on when we should start warring with SANCTA, MS, Saturn and Cavalieros.

    I think you want to start our first war during the late Rennaisance/early industrial age, when we get Redcoats right? I think we are better off starting the war much sooner, during the early classical period (i.e. right now). Here are some reasons:

    1. I envision getting rid of everyone besides Cavalieros BEFORE we get Redcoats. Because of our commercial trait, It is in our best interest to whittle the pack down to two as quickly as possible. Once there are only 2 competitors, it will be easy for us to out-tech the last rival and overwhelm them with superior units. But the longer we wait (and thus the farther along the tech tree we go) the less and less room there will be to be superior and the more tech we will have given to our inevitable enemy.

    2. Because Cavalieros can get more Great Generals we are better off making them fight as much as possible, BEFORE they can build military academies. I shudder to think of facing off armies led by Tanks with level 3 city raider:eek:

    3. Right now no one is close enough to anyone for "land grabbing" to matter, so now is the time to attack, before that issue makes war even more politically complicated. We have not even settled our visible land yet... so worrying about land we can't even see yet should not be an issue. It will be ages before we can settle anywhere near SANCTA.

    4. No one is expecting an attack now... So now is the BEST time to attack. We want to attack when SANCTA has their guard completely down... when an attack is the absolute last thing they would expect. Imagine if they are as unprepared for an attack as we are right now. They would be an easy target.

    5. We want to attack our Rivals when they only have a few, easily destroyed cities, rather than wait for them to have huge empires and strong allies. SANCTA prob has 4 or 5 cities now... Why wait for them to get 20? It will be impossible to destroy them then.

    6. We want to attack our rivals now because they will have no idea where we are coming from, so they will not be able to counter-attack. Imagine if we attacked SANCTA now... They have absolutely no clue where we or anyone else is.

    7. We need to take Cavalieros focus OFF expansion and let them be the attack dogs they seem to be so eager to be. If they want to take responsibility for doing the bulk of the fighting / military production, then let them prove it.

    This is why the "land grab" issue is not important to me. If we attack SANCTA now we would not be capturing cities, we would be burning them because they are far away. So there is no danger that we will make Cavalieros nervous about all our newly catured land. Land is a non-issue now. That is another reason we should attack now.
     
  7. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    The problem with this idea is that SAN are so far away. By the time a unit reaches them it could be obsolete.

    The element of surprise won't be that great either as they can see our demographics.

    If we just go in for razing SAN cities all we achieve is to make one rival weaker but we don't make ourselves stronger in doing so if we don't take any cities.

    And really can't see how we are going to be able to wipe out MS, SANCTA and Saturn before we even get to Redcoats. Wishful thinking!
     
  8. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    What ?!? C'mon... First of all Chariots are not obsolete against Axes, Axes are not obsolete against Spears, and Spears are not obsolete against Elephants. Plus NONE of these are obsolete as far as pillaging goes. Second, the fact that it COULD be obsolete is very different from saying it WILL be obsolete. You have very little basis for making this statement, other than the fact that you just dont want to do it.

    Huh? The element of suprise will be tremendous, because even if they know we are building armies, they DO NOT know we are planning to ATTACK. They especially DO NOT know we are planning to attack THEM. Also, since we AND Cavalieros will be attacking, they will not see a MASSIVE military buildup by ONE civ... they will see a MODERATE buildup by 2 civs... They will probably interpret that as an increase in defense rather than an invasion force.

    Lastly, even if we don't gain a HUGE advantage with a surprise attack, we still gain an advantage... We should not miss any opportunity to gain an advantage.

    This statement makes no sense :confused: We gain no advantage by elimminating or crippling SANCTA?!? What ?!? Destroying SANCTA makes us and Cavalieros the undisputed strongest teams in the game! How does that not make us stronger :confused:

    Just because it will be difficult does not mean we should not try... AND just because you don't see how we can do it does not mean it can't be done. Have you tested how fast we can build an invasion force? No... because you completely dismiss this strategy. Just declaring that it is "wishful thinking" is not proof that it is not possible... It is just unsubstantiated naysaying on your part. I have posted many test w/screenshots, where we have a large force of chariots in a short amont of time. So we have PROOF that we can crank out an army. You have NO PROOF that we can't.

    Finally, it is not critical for us to destroy SANCTA, MS and Saturn before Redcoats, what is critical is for us to start preparing to invade SANCTA now, AND try to elimminate MS and Saturn as quickly as possible... If we finish the war after Redcoats, that is OK, but we should not WAIT for Redcoats before we start the war.
     
  9. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    We have no idea what the terrain is like between us and SANCTA. There could well be obstacles to block a direct path, this is a designed map, so anything is possible. A journey time of 20-30 turns (for a 1:move: unit) between leaving our territory and entering theirs is a very long way and you're paying support for units out of your territory that aren't doing anything useful in transit.

    You can do a fair bit of teching in 20-30 turns. By the time we have build a respectable raiding party of Axes/Spears/Swords/Chariots SANCTA could quite well have teched Machinery, Feudalism, and will probably have Construction, meaning Cats and 'phants. If we wait till we have Construction then they could be on Engineering or CS. Meaning our stack of Axes/Spears/Swords/Chariots/Cats could well be facing Maces/Crossbows/Pikes by the time they reach SANCTA's lands.

    You are assuming that Cav have a reasonable land route to SANCTA here. If we are 20-30 turns away they are probably 30-40 turns away or more.

    If we go and hurt SANCTA, this benefits all the other four teams, not just us. SANCTA is a rival to everyone at the moment. You do have a point that if we take SANCTA out then the other two teams have no hope. It will be a massive undertaking though, and not something we should just make a half-hearted attempt at.

    I'm sure we can crank out an army, that's not the point. We're talking about significant distances here. How many turns do you think it will be for us to tech to Rifling? You're suggesting we will have wiped out 3 rivals civs by then?

    I just don't see major conflicts happening until our borders are much closer. Sure, we can send a few fast moving units out to cause a nuisance if we wanted, but I don't see us doing anymore than that. The sea route is also a long way around.

    The key point is to be attacking them with units that are a tech level above what our rival has. I don't think we'll be able to have that much lead over SANCTA until we have rifles and they are stuck with muskets. Otherwise the time it takes for us to send units to invade will be enough time for SANCTA to have caught up and be producing same-tech units.
     
  10. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Since we're still having trouble with barbarians I think it's bit early to be attacking anyone.
     
  11. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    and also... if it doesn't work we would have spent a very large number of hammers on military instead of infrastructure or workers/settlers...

    Not saying it's not impossible, but the odds seem to be daunting..
     
  12. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Exactly, this statement just supports my point.... We need to build chariots to clear the barbs out of the valley... so we can explore, and find a route to SANCTA before, they find a route to us. We should be building spies, NOT missionaries for this very reason.

    You have no idea how many turns it will take, and you have no basis to say that it will take 30 turns. Plus our units will be doing something useful in transit... they will be picking off barbs and gaining experience.

    What proof do you have that it will take 30 turns to get to SANCTA? That is a baseless assertion if there is no proof. 20-30 turns?:confused: That is a 10 turn gap! You're just arbitrarily thowing out figures with no support:(

    :crazyeye: Yes, yes... and by the time we have Redcoats, they could have Grenadiers and by the time we have Infantry they could have Helicopters, etc... etc... Your argument makes no sense. You don't want to attack, so You are basically saying that they will always be ahead of us so we can never attack. You have no basis for saying that they will get Maces before we attack. You are just asserting it with no proof whatsoever.

    This is just more baseless exageration... Now its 40 turns away?

    You are the one who is half-hearted about this. I WHOLEHEARTEDLY want to destroy SANCTA. Were you not just railing about how we need to think of ways to benefit THE ALLIANCE and not just ourselves?:confused: Have you changed your mind about helping the Alliance?

    What you mean... Is that you don't WANT major conflict until we are closer. As I said before, just because it is not in your comfort zone does not mean we should not do it.

    That will never happen. SANCTA would be fools not to attack us BEFORE we get a tech level ahead in terms of military... "Wishful Thinking" on your part :king:.

    This is quite correct Don and these two issues are related because they both highlight how inadequate our military is. It is UTTERLY RIDICULOUS for us to still be having trouble with barbs when we have horses AND iron. We really should be building NOTHING but chariots until the barbs are no longer an issue.
     
  13. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Look, I know you like to argue for the sake of it, but I don't.

    I wrote a longer reply but pc crashed (vista piece of crap). I will repeat this: 20-30 was a guess I gave without being able to login. Having logged in and counted tiles I would say it's more like 15-25 tiles between BFCs.

    I think you're on your own on this one sommers, and from past experience you won't change your mind once you've dug your heels in, so I'll be wasting my breath.

    If other people seem swayed by your reasoning I'll pick up my side of the argument again.
     
  14. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I think what we need to do, to win out with the Cav deals, is to get a Great People superiority, and even save these great people, to only upset the balance as soon as the alliance is over. This also means that any Great Scientists we get, are used or saved to benefit us in the longer haul.

    This means, we need to direct our Great People generation towards Prophets, Spies, Generals, Engineers, Artists and Merchants, and less scientists until we conclude the alliance, then work heavily on Great Scientists. The Great People strategy is imperative here.
     
  15. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    1. You are correct, I do like arguing for the fun of it;)
    2. 15 tiles sounds much more accurate... but is does not matter because;
    3. you are right that attacking SANCTA does not seem to have much support... sooo I lose, next argument:)
    4. You know very well that it's not true, and unfair to say that I won't change my mind, but good job and touche... using my previous statments (towards Miko and Don) against me :)

    As always... the argument was fun... (At least it was for me!:D)
     
  16. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    Your assesment of using great people for long term benefits instead of bulbing now is correct, at least in my book...however scientists can be settled and used for academies...we don't necessarily need other types of great people to use them for long term benefits..
     
  17. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Attacking Sancta.

    I don't think either I or Sommers was advocating an immediate change in focus to send troops north to attack Sancta. More a strategy that leaves the option open. If we get maces before they have machinery - which is quite possible - we should do some opportune pillaging.

    I think planning on doing this woudl be folly, but depending on how the game plays out it could work well.
     
  18. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    I think either way we need to build up our military capacity. SANCTA's soldier value is nearly 100k and ours is 70k. Techs are about equal and their higher population will only add a few k so the must have quite a few more units than we do.
     
  19. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I agree but they have also been building axes for a long time while we only started building chariots more recently.

    Also it looks like the map geography means that they need more units to defend against barbarians. We really lucked out getting placed in a cul-de-sac like this.
     
  20. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    What is our strategy for continued settlement? We need to do some more exploring before we decide on specific locations but I think that we should start planning out our next 3 cities now.

    I think one should be in the valley and the next two claiming that cluster of awesome jungle resources. We should probably build a few workers 1st (how many?) and have at least one start roading north to the city sites.

    The flood plains city should be able to put out a settlers and works fairly quickly and once it grows a bit larger we should turn it over to worker/settler production.
     

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