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Strategy Objectives - Mid Term

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Provolution, Dec 10, 2008.

  1. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    I think once we have the GL online and we have all the fog busted in our protected homelands we are ready to enter the next phase of the game- exploration and REX into the resource rich center.

    I would like to see Shymkent grow as fast as possible to work maximum cottages- we are going to need the cash to fuel our REX. I see Aktau as a better source for settlers/workers. Once Pav hits pop 10 it will have zero growth (until Bio) so we could produce settlers/workers here as well.
     
  2. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    I agree, Aktau is a far better source of workers than Shymkent, which we should focus on making as large as possible. Besides, there's so much food near Aktau that we make settlers and workers in no time
     
  3. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    We also want to run great people in Actua. And since it is a low production city I think it would make sense to start working on the buildings that the city will need sooner rather than later.
     
  4. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    Yea remember that we want a prophet from Actau..that is why we are building temples.

    The next worker and settler will have to come from somewhere else. I would say settler Pavlodar and worker corn gold city.
     
  5. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I am funneling this discussion to this thread since it deals with stuff that is potentially many turns into the future.

    Moai Statues

    A 3 pop whip is available in Atyrau for the Moai Statues. Moai finishes naturally in 6 turns. I would let Moai finish naturally, because whipping Moai will result in a net loss of 35:hammers: and 21:commerce: and a net loss of 3 turns (in terms of getting back everything we would have if we don't whip).

    We currently have 27 of 32 :food: needed to grow. If we 3 pop whip now, Atyrau will grow to size 4 in 1 turn (26 needed for pop 4, we have 27 already) with 1:food: overflow, so with the Granary, there will be 14 :food:, + 7 surplus (see the next paragraph).

    At pop 3 (for 1 turn) we will make 13, at max food production, and consume 6 so there would be a surplus of 7 food. So 21:food: towards the 28 needed for pop 5, with a 7:food: surplus. That means Atyrau would grow again in 1 turn with 0 overflow and 14 stored from Granary.

    When we grow to size 4 the surplus will remain the same @ 7 (15:food: produced, 8used), because we can only add 2:food: from the tiles available (each pop increase also consumes 2 :food:).

    It take 30 food to grow to pop6, and we will start with 14:food: (from Granary) so @ surplus per turn, it will take another 3 turns, to grow. So in total, it will take 5 turns to grow back to pop6 if we whip now. To get to pop7 (32:food:), where we would have been if we let Moai finish naturally, with the 6:food: overflow and 7 surplus, it will take another 4 turns. So it will take 9 turns total to get back everything that we would have had if we did not whip.

    Keep in mind, that to max out :food: we cant work the Iron or Fur so no Iron :hammers: and no Fur :commerce:. That is a loss of 6:hammers: and 5:commerce: per turn, so we lose 54:hammers:, and 45:commerce:.

    However, on the 2nd turn (of 5) with Moais, we will get an aditional 3:commerce: from one additional water tile and 3:hammers: from all the water tiles that we would not have worked without Moai whip. Then 6:commerce: and 4:hammers: for 3 turns from the Moai enhanced tiles (that we wouldnt have been working without the Moai whip). At pop 6 we would add another Moai tile for 4 turns so that means another 4:hammers and 12:commerce:. So that's 19:hammers: and 33:commerce: total.

    Not to mention that Atyrau is 2 turns away from growing again and would probably work a water tile, making 9:commerce: in 3 turns. So we net a loss of 35:hammers: and 21:commerce: by whipping Moai.

    Finallly, our last 3 pop whip put us behind MS in score so we are 2nd to last now. Before the 3 pop whip, we were gaining on SANCTA and had moved within 300 points IIRC. We are now almost 500 points behind SANCTA.

    Based on this, I would let Moai go ahead and finish naturally. It is only a few more turns.
     
  6. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Good reasoning, but the switch to Theo and Free Market could change that math a bit. For one we get a free turn to reduce the unhappiness during anarchy. And 2, once we switch to Theo we no longer get the 25% bonus for producing buildings.

    I think it might make sense to do the whip now, or we could wait until right before we switch civics and only do a 2 pop whip.
     
  7. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I know we are planning to switch to Theocracy for the Military bonus, but I would like folks to consider Vassalage instead. Some of our cities don't have forges yet, and they need the production bonus from Org Rel alot more than Hazrate does (from Bureau). Losing 25% :hammers: in ALL cities has to outweigh losing 50% :hammers: in one, right? BTW I know that the 50%:commerce: is a big factor too.

    If we are ONLY planning on building military after the switch, then I guess we could just go with Vass and Theoc, for a double-double on exp points. With barracks AND stables in some of our cities, that could make for some really, really, nasty Knights.

    I would also like us to consider switching to Serfdom (Workers improve tiles twice as fast). We have too few workers and no time to spare to build more. You are supposed to have at least 1 or 2 workers per-city, we have 7 workers, and 9 cities. We need our workers to maximize our tiles as quickly as possible, especially with so few cities.

    Also, as everyone knows, I think it is time to put the whip away and focus on growth. We cannot slave our way to victory here, we have to start gaining in terms of sustained growth and production. If we desperately need military quickly, then lets get Nationalism and run Nationhood instead.
     
  8. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    drafting is a poor way to go until we hit rifles for the simple reason that it's extremely not worth it to draft muskets in terms of hammers v happiness v food.

    I don't even know how worthwhile it's for us to draft, period. We are running against the happy cap already and most of our cities don't have massive food surpluses. Although if we build the globe theater someplace the equation might change...

    Serfdom I think is bad. It doesn't look like as if we are working more than a small number of unimproved tiles so the GDP loss from that is probably not huge... (Serfdom happens to be one of my least favorite civics too so I might be prejudiced)

    Vassals might be an interesting choice though. I dunno.
     
  9. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Some preliminary thoughts on Post War plans.

    Build the AP?

    The AP – we talked about building it earlier, but that was fairly inconclusive. The odds of getting MS on board to pull off a AP win are pretty small, but AP voting would still allow us to meddle with the other teams. Also we could use AP voting to prevent Team Cav or Sancta from wiping out MS or Saturn. I assume that if faced with elimination they would be more willing to give us an AP win. The main reason for the AP though is the extra hammers from Religions buildings. The down side is it will prevent us from running free religion and pursuing technology that makes the AP obsolete.

    I think we should go for the AP. We are strong when it comes to beakers and weaker with respect to production. The benefit of +10% science from Free Rel will be more than offset from the possibility of +4 hammers in every city. However to take full advantage of the AP this means we need to build a lot of monasteries before they become obsolete.

    We also miss out on the extra happiness under Free Rel due to the fact that we have a bunch of religions. This would be the main reason not to build it. We are already a bit lacking when it comes to happiness resources, and whales and furs will eventually become obsolete.

    Tech path

    I see 3 tech path options. Go for Democracy. Go for Scientific Method followed by grabbing up the free great people techs. Go for Railroad.

    Democracy is not obvious at 1st but under the Dem civic we could greatly increase our production in cottage cities. Also being able to rush but improvements would be quite helpful. This also opens up Corporation. Dem also will allow emancipation which will put Sancta in a bind. If our alliance all switches sancta will face a good amount of unhappiness. If they switch to emancipation they will have to switch out of Caste System weaken their specialist economy. Also it could force Sancta to divert beakers to tech Dem which otherwise they would have less interest in going after. Pyramids already let them run Democracy and they would only tech it if they need to run emancipation due to unhappiness.

    Scientific Method would be a great choice but it kills the GL and obsoletes Monasteries. If we go with the AP we need to wait until we get monasteries built in all cities before getting SM. If we don’t go with AP we should wait until Haz gets its next great person from the GL and until we build at least 1 monastery for each of our religions. The free great people from physics, communism, and fascism will need to be shared with our allies, but more important is probably denying these from Sancta. Also physics allows airships right. From what I have read in the forums Airships + cavalry is a pretty nasty combo. So it may be useful to get them earlier (also they would make good lookouts for potential Sancta Naval attacks). Finally, these techs open up some civics options – but I don’t think they help us too much (Team Cav will probably want Communism though).

    Railroad – Machine guns will be useful to consolidate our hold on any captured Sancta land. We have more troops than they do for now, but if they go to a 100% war footing we could be facing huge #s of rifles and Cavalry in the very near future. Rails will also speed troop movement and increase production.

    I think we should go for Railroad and one of our allies should start down the SM path. We hold off on the trade until after we have our monasteries built and we grab one of the great person Techs. My preference would be fascism for the General. As a frontline state with Sancta we need it the most, and Team Cav has a leader trait that allows them to get a bunch of Great generals.

    Civics
    Once the war is over we probably want to quickly switch back to bureaucracy. But losing the happiness benefit from barracks under nationalism may hurt us a bit. We also should switch out of Theo and back to Org Rel as we will have a lot of infrastructure to build up in newly captured cities (this will also allow our many religions to spread around better). Ideally we time this so that the time spent in anarchy is also time during which we can burn off some draft unhappiness as well as resistance in captured cities. The switch should happen once all cities are ready to build infrastructure – and before then we should max out the Theo exp bonus and complete any units in the build que.

    If we get Dem we could switch to Dem and Emancipation – but I think we should hold off on that as slavery will be useful in some newly captured cities and Mon will help with unhappiness issues due to our recent drafting. I also don’t think Fascism or Communism are great for our empire.


    Needed Infrastructure
    Courthouses all over the place. If we have success vs. Sancta we will need these to contain maintenance costs. Also they will allow us to boost Esp.

    Monasteries - at least one for each religion (maybe 2 for Confu and Judaism). If we build the AP we also want a Confu one in every city.

    Aktua – as our GP Farm it needs the National Epic. A market and grocer would also be useful so we can start running merchants.

    Taraz – I think this is a good location for a Forbidden Place (assuming we capture TKY and DT). I think this should also become our espionage city. It will be able to support a good number of cottages which will dovetail nicely with the esp boosting structures.

    Pavlo – Bank, market, grocer to max out the benefits of shrines.

    Haz – Ships until we switch back to Bureau and Org Rel and then work on the AP.
     
  10. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Good analysis, thanks. After reading this I'm leaning towards railroad or democracy. I'm not sure the AP would be worth it, we'll have to see how the war goes. I also think it might be tough to get all the monasteries built.
     
  11. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Sorry for the Rambling post BTW.

    We can kick the decision down the line for a bit wit the AP but +4 base hammers per city is huge. That will be probably work out to 25% increase in total production.

    Our next tech will be the 1st thing we need to decide.
     
  12. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Cav is doing scientific method, I think we should definitely go for steam power-> railroad. Levees and railroads on mines will be substantial production boost.
     
  13. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    I have 2 problems with the AP
    1) we are at war. I don't know how I feel about redirecting a large amount of resources toward the AP at this point

    2) We are not THAT far from the UN now. How many turns for the AP to become obsolete? 50? 60?
     
  14. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    My thought was to build it once thewar is over. I agree now would be a diversion. As to UN - my understanding was that if we never tech or trade for Mass Media we can use the AP benefits indefinitely. Even if another team builds the UN.

    If another team is going for SM we need to remember not to trade for SM right away. Even if we do not go for the AP we still need a few Confu and Judaism Monasteries.
     
  15. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    If you are positive on point #1 then I guess we can go for it.
    I don't remember what the tech tree looks like. How critical is Mass Media?
     
  16. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    With all our Gold resources, we might want to get Civilizedjewels. You need Mass media for Civilized jewels.
     
  17. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I've been reading up a bit on corporations - and I am not so sure about jewelers. Since we are trading our gold out we really only have 1 gold.

    I think our best corp option is cereals as we have a very large excess of grains.

    As to boosting gold. I think using our shrines in Pavlo and founding any corps there will result in a very good cash flow. Especially once we get wall Street.

    Id rather go for food and production boosting corporations. We h which would make a good choice.
     
  18. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    jewelers is the weakest of all the corporations. Though aluminum corp and ethanol is pretty crap as well.

    I would prefer sushi or cereal, and mining if we can get it. Cereal is probably better than sushi because we don't have a huge amount of fish.

    Mining would be absolutely huge for us. That'd be my clear 2nd choice. But overall I think a food corporation is stronger.
     
  19. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I was thinking about mining as well - but we don't have much in the way of resources for it. Though denying it from Team Cav might be useful as well.

    Aluminum or ethanol could end up being very important if we are lacking these resources.

    Either way I think we shoot for Cereal.
     
  20. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    The trouble is that it would be hard to get a merchant GP I think...
    Or an engineer for mining.

    A scientist would be easiest for ethanol. We might actually consider saving our GS is we are considering ethanol for the long run.
     

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