Stream on thursday? Will the last sponsor be revealed?

[Red Menace]

Someone on Twitch tell Pete to attack Ard with his army once they're all over there! gahhh!

Much harder to invade without those patrol boats!

Edit: much harder to invade when you keep throwing away your units one at a time...it's like watching the AI!

I'd say keep science yield but increase maintenance by 3.

you mean keep 2science and increase maintenance by 3? or keep original yield? than it looks like 3 5maintenance, I think 2 4maintenance would balance better it would make the knowledge Virtue more powerful this way, but this is just my opinion.

So they put in buffs for Terrascapes in Purity, and at the same time don't include the ability to build them in the water.

That makes absolutely no sense. The only explanation I can think of is that they ran out of time to do new graphics for water Terrascapes.

If other improvements like Academies, Nodes and Biowells can't be built underwater either, then water cities just seem needlessly restrictive. Can't spread borders naturally, can't build certain improvements, lower defenses. Aside from the novelty aspect, there doesn't really seem to be any actual advantage to settling in the water.

I can imagine underwater Biowells and Nodes but nodes would be on the surface, and couldn't Terrascapes be an artificial island or atoll? that would look awesome.

 

[Veras]

The concept of the Biowells seems well fitting with oceans. I can also think of Arrays, Domes and Nodes being built on water. Academies, Terrascapes and Manufactories, not so much.

 

[GenEngineer]

As for the points made about Purity having Terrascape buffs and Terrascapes not being compatible with the oceans, that kind of makes sense to me. Philosophically, Purity clings to old earth and seeks to recreate it. There were no water cities on old earth, so they'd likely be incentivized somewhat to keep to the land. Harmony, who adapts to new environments, and Supremacy, who laughs at aevironment being a factor? Not so much. (although I could see Nodes and Biowells being land only too, for 'balance' sake)

 

[Ryika]

There is more to BE than just spamming academies and biowells and winning in 200 turns!

Sure. Would...

"Here's this cool, new feature, but please if you want to use it, make sure to turn your head off and go into immersion-mode first!"

...be more to your liking?

But I mean the point I was trying to make should be rather obvious: If there are no "water academies", then people whose playstyle evolves around trying to make the "best" decisions would not be able to use Water Cities - and for no real reason really, because I can't see any good reason to not include such an improvement. Academies may not fit well thematically, but some sort of ocean laboratory that studies life deep down in the ocean would.

So the conclusion would be that the designers didn't realize the problem - or didn't care about that type of player. But of course, maybe Academies CAN be placed on ocean tiles and all of these thoughts were meaningless.

 

[Veras]

As said before, the problem with water Academies is, if spamming them was only limited to the space available on base BE, now they would be spammable all over the map. This makes the problem worse in my opinion.

 

[Ryika]

As said before, the problem with water Academies is, if spamming them was only limited to the space available on base BE, now they would be spammable all over the map. This makes the problem worse in my opinion.

Maximum Efficiency in Singleplayer is with around ~5 Cities all size 10-16. On most maps that many Non-Resource Land Tiles are already available. I don't think water-cities would make the problem worse.

However, I agree: Nerfing Academies would be a much better solution. They didn't get nerfed though, they're still what they were in the base game. So I do at least hope that there's an equally strong improvement available on water.

 

[Sunergy]

It'd be nice if the ocean had some unique advanced improvements that further set water cities apart. They could have something fairly tame changed about them, like reducing local production instead of needing energy for maintenance (the closed environment is highly efficient but requires constant maintenance, for those who need a hand-wavy explanation).

I'm not holding my breath, but it would be nice.

Also, do we know if there is going to be an improvement that grants diplomatic capital? Hardly necessary, but we've got one for every other resource. I guess it would be some kind of... conference center?

 

[iki]

There is more to BE than just spamming academies and biowells and winning in 200 turns!

You know I've never done that... I just spam terascapes

 

[Red Menace]

Sure. Would...

"Here's this cool, new feature, but please if you want to use it, make sure to turn your head off and go into immersion-mode first!"

...be more to your liking?

But I mean the point I was trying to make should be rather obvious: If there are no "water academies", then people whose playstyle evolves around trying to make the "best" decisions would not be able to use Water Cities - and for no real reason really, because I can't see any good reason to not include such an improvement. Academies may not fit well thematically, but some sort of ocean laboratory that studies life deep down in the ocean would.

So the conclusion would be that the designers didn't realize the problem - or didn't care about that type of player. But of course, maybe Academies CAN be placed on ocean tiles and all of these thoughts were meaningless.

Ryika why do you play to MAXIMUM EFFIECENCY in singleplayer? you've said it yourself the AI in BE is weak you have no real reason to spam Academies, unless the Optimal Burglar brakes into your house and steals everything if you don't win by turn 210, which I'm pretty sure isn't the case for obvious reasons.

And your not an idiot for playing the game more than one way.

The concept of the Biowells seems well fitting with oceans. I can also think of Arrays, Domes and Nodes being built on water. Academies, Terrascapes and Manufactories, not so much.

I think they could do Terrascapes on water, now Manufactories would be more challenging not sure how but they could probably do it.

 

[Galgus]

The key point is that player's shouldn't have to play hugely sub-optimally to use such a central mechanic.

 

[Red Menace]

The key point is that player's shouldn't have to play hugely sub-optimally to use such a central mechanic.

well I meant base BE but your point is valid, Its not hard to make an ocean science improvement I would be surprised if they didn't make one, has anyone asked if they nerfed academies? if so I would like to know if they really hadn't considered nerfing them, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't but I just want to make sure I know for a fact before I abandon all hope.

I'm not saying its Ryikas fault the game isn't balanced I'm just saying you don't HAVE to spam academies.

 

[Ryika]

Ryika why do you play to MAXIMUM EFFIECENCY in singleplayer? you've said it yourself the AI in BE is weak you have no real reason to spam Academies, unless the Optimal Burglar brakes into your house and steals everything if you don't win by turn 210, which I'm pretty sure isn't the case for obvious reasons.

Hehe, hilarious. I rate 6 out of potato.

Reason is simple: Because I enjoy it.
Do you think that's something special these days? What about Hall of Fame, Game of the Month and other Singleplayer-Challenges where people try to play as efficiently as possible?

And you're not an idiot for playing the game more than one way.

Good that I didn't say that then! If you took my previous post as implying that: No, I wasn't. I was implying that I would need to turn off my brain in order to play that inefficiently and feel somewhat good about it, because I usually enjoy playing efficiently. Nothing wrong with people who don't care about efficiency - but there's literally no reason why Land Cities and Ocean Cities shouldn't be able to compete with each other in terms of strength. If it turns out that ocean cities are strictly weaker than land cities, then that's a design problem. One that may not affect you, but it would certainly affect me.

 

[Red Menace]

Reason is simple: Because I enjoy it.
Do you think that's something special these days? What about Hall of Fame, Game of the Month and other Singleplayer-Challenges where people try to play as efficient as possible?

but you're not competing, unless you are but I would have no way of knowing that.

Hehe, hilarious. I rate 6 out of potato.

I'm hungry now, we have a problem that cant be solved unless you have more potatos.

but there's literally no reason why Land Cities and Ocean Cities should be able to compete with each other in terms of strength. If it turns out that ocean cities are strictly weaker than land cities, then that's a design problem. One that may not affect you, but it would certainly affect me.

hmmm....good that I didn't say there was a reason for water cities not having academies, in fact in my above post I said there is no reason water cities should have no academies.

 

[BevHeartMuncher]

The advantage to ocean cities is the extra buildings. If I recall, ocean cities can build extra buildings (thermohaline rudder, which grants science etc) which are only available to water, and no buildings are restricted to land. So, water cities, with all the buildings, would theoretically have higher yields because they get extra buildings which can't be built on land.

 

[Ryika]

but you're not competing, unless you are but I would have no way of knowing that.

I compete with my own records and try to reach the finishing times that I predict should be possible on a given starting location.

I'm hungry now, we have a problem that cant be solved unless you have more potatos.

There are some more potatoes in one of my cupboards, but they're quite old and have these... white... things that grow after a while and that I don't know the English name of. Don't think it would a good idea to eat them, but if you want to test your look (<--- /edit: Now THAT'S a stupid mistake.), go right ahead!

hmmm....good that I didn't say there was a reason for water cities not having academies, in fact in my above post I said there is no reason water cities should have no academies.

Good that I didn't accuse you of saying that there was a reason for water cities not having academies then. No problem to be found here.

The advantage to ocean cities is the extra buildings. If I recall, ocean cities can build extra buildings (thermohaline rudder, which grants science etc) which are only available to water, and no buildings are restricted to land. So, water cities, with all the buildings, would theoretically have higher yields because they get extra buildings which can't be built on land.

Yeah, but that sounds like... a basket ball player having the advantage of being small enough to sneak around opponents.

 

[Red Menace]

I compete with my own records and try to reach the finishing times that I predict should be possible on a given starting location.


There are some more potatoes in one of my cupboards, but they're quite old and have these... white... things that grow after a while and that I don't know the English name of. Don't think it would a good idea to eat them, but if you want to test your look, go right ahead!


Good that I didn't accuse you of saying that there was a reason for water cities not having academies then. No problem to be found here.


Yeah, but that sounds like... a basket ball player having the advantage of being small enough to sneak around opponents.

I do that in Civ V never really cared in BE though not sure why just never cared. but just to give me a reason what is a good turn for finishing? not fastest possible like 200 or 190 or whatever just something to start with.

Ah no matter, I have found some of my own potatos and they are not very old.

Yep no problems whatsoever glad that's perfectly clear.

perhaps it is, but maybe that's not all, its hard to tell when all they ever show is one part of the game.

 

[Natura]

The concept of the Biowells seems well fitting with oceans. I can also think of Arrays, Domes and Nodes being built on water. Academies, Terrascapes and Manufactories, not so much.

Academies: There's a well established sci-fi convention of underwater research laboratories.

Terrascapes: Coral reefs. Populated with Earth fish. Hell we do this currently, no reason why we couldn't do it in the future.

Manufactories: Oil derricks. Giant ships that suck up minerals from the ocean floor. Oily, rusted hulks under leaky domes bolted onto the seabed to mine submarine deposits.

For that matter, transparent tubes along the ocean floor would work for roads, and maglevs could be represented by hovering sections of rail that are suspended over the water. There's honestly no improvement that couldn't work at sea; even if examples in sci-fi didn't exist, we're dealing with creative people here; they could just make something up.

For a dev team that chastised themselves for not being ambitious enough, they're sure not being ambitious with what is supposed to be the main feature of this expansion pack. The same can't be said for Diplomacy, which really is a massive, unique and ambitious overhaul.

 

[GenEngineer]

Academies: There's a well established sci-fi convention of underwater research laboratories.

Terrascapes: Coral reefs. Populated with Earth fish. Hell we do this currently, no reason why we couldn't do it in the future.

Manufactories: Oil derricks. Giant ships that suck up minerals from the ocean floor. Oily, rusted hulks under leaky domes bolted onto the seabed to mine submarine deposits.

For that matter, transparent tubes along the ocean floor would work for roads, and maglevs could be represented by hovering sections of rail that are suspended over the water. There's honestly no improvement that couldn't work at sea; even if examples in sci-fi didn't exist, we're dealing with creative people here; they could just make something up.

For a dev team that chastised themselves for not being ambitious enough, they're sure not being ambitious with what is supposed to be the main feature of this expansion pack. The same can't be said for Diplomacy, which really is a massive, unique and ambitious overhaul.

The only one of those that they said wouldn't be available are Terrascapes. We haven't seen the others, true, but then we haven't seen passed turn 50 (minor exaggeration).

As for Terrascapes... no idea why they're absent. Maybe to compensate for some equivalent improvement for water tiles only in the late game (he says with desperate hope, but not an ounce of faith)?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Also, there are Domes, Purity's second 'special improvement' which were in a screenshot.
So it would be understandable if Terrascapes were the only one excluded.

 

[Alkaid]

Its not hard to make an ocean science improvement I would be surprised if they didn't make one

Would you really? I'm one of the more optimistic people about the stuff they do, but I have 0 expectation of them making a comparable alternative if they don't have academies usable on water tiles. That's the type of oversight I totally expect from them. Same with not recognizing how OP academies are as it is.

if so I would like to know if they really hadn't considered nerfing them, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't but I just want to make sure I know for a fact before I abandon all hope.

I've asked multiple times on streams and twitter, and I don't think I'm alone. They've never responded, and I highly, highly doubt they've touched them.

I'm not saying its Ryikas fault the game isn't balanced I'm just saying you don't HAVE to spam academies.

Well it doesn't really work like that if you're someone who's both trying to play well and playing well is part of how you have fun. I'm not nearly as optimal as Ryika is, but once you know how much of a difference academy spam makes you just feel like you're massively holding yourself back if you don't utilize them. I'm not one for self-imposed challenge to make up for lacking balance in games. I absolutely want things to be well-balanced (and in this case see academies nerfed) but trying to make up that difference by purposefully crippling myself feels even worse than using something that's unbalanced. At least in this kind of game it sure does.

It's no different then how everybody goes for Tradition opener in Civ V 90% of the time since outside of uncommon situations it's just plain better than the rest. You could skip Rationalism that's taken 99% of the time too, but again you're just gimping yourself to try and supply choice diversity where the devs failed to encourage it.