Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Olleus, Aug 23, 2016.
France, India, and Egypt are my picks at the mo. With Germany close behind.
From the first impression, if you can get religions to spread to you India could be very powerful
Brazil - Build districts, get the adjacency bonuses without trying, use those to project out great people, then get a rebate leaving you in the race for the next one. Tie up all the great people every era. Sometimes you use those to leap ahead, sometimes you use them to tie up a loose end, sometimes you just deny a relevant bonus to a competitor.
Aztecs - Build an army, use that to enslave builders, in the meanwhile build a bunch of cities and use your new builders to complete their districts and improve luxuries. So far, it's the best bonuses we've seen for a spread build-out and it's got a stronger-than-base UU.
Japan - Build your districts next to each other, in half the time, and ignore mountains because you'll get your adjacency bonuses from the districts instead. Brazil edges slightly ahead because of the extra GPP that look to be key to this strategy.
Scythia - The strongest military bonus so far, with a UI that alleviates the growing pangs of being on a military footing in the early game.
In my opinion is still hard to say which civ is the strongest so far, because the balancing is quite changing still.
For example the district adjacency boni:
The commercial hub got a bonus from harbor and each river tile edge for 1 gold. Now it is changed to 2 gold for harbor and just being on a river.
The industrial zone (iz) in the media build (the one of all those let's plays) gave +1 production for each mine or quarry adjacent. But the Hanse gives in the latest build +2 for commercial hub (ch) and for adjacent ressources.
If not the normal iz got changed too, the hanse looks in a way weaker then the normal iz, because from the lets plays so far it seems that is not that uncommon to find a location surrounded by hills. Sure, hanse would still be build in half the time without counting to the district limit, but in sheer numbers the iz could be better.
So, if we speak about if Germany might be the strongest civ or one of them, it depends on the overall balancing.
The same matter you have with the Brazil Jungle Bonus. In the Preview Build Brazil was clearly overpowered at least for quick speed and early game. The Jungle wasnt really removed by improvements and districts so some player could easily pump out a lot of +6 yield districts.
I think, that will be fixed. Districts will remove jungle, so you will have some tough decisions to make, every other civ wants to have their districts clumbed together, especially Japan, but Brazil in the jungle wants to avoid it.
Brazil might still be very strong at least in the early game to get an advantage, if they start by or find a big enough jungle, it would be a simple strategy to just found a few small cities with just one or two districts, but completely surrounded by jungle.
I think, that is still one of the strongest abilities. One Problem might still be, that a minor adjacency bonus counts as 1/2, but the end value seems to be rounded down, so a single minor adjacency bonus gives you no yields. But Brazil will nearly always get sth near rain forests. Maybe it will be changed, that improved ressources like bananas in plantations remove the jungle so Brazil Players are forced to make tougher decisions.
The Royal Dockyard depends a lot of the values too. At the moment, it gives a little more than normal harbors. But the extra trade route seems none the less quite powerfull to me, regarding how strong trade routes were in BNW and how few you had still at the end. An England spamming little coast cities everywhere and pushing his empire with trade routes seems strong to me in some way too.
Especially considering that harbors will be earlier available than commercial hubs.
And all those other boni of some civs giving combat boni are still a matter of changing, so it is hard to tell, which is stronger and which is weaker. America's +5 on home continent seems very strong early on, but might fall of late game.
On the other hand if the Aztecs can require a lot luxus ressources, they might get overpowered compared to other combat boni if the aztecs will have improved 10+ luxus ressources and each giving +1 cs. But still here is a big question mark because until now it seems, there are more ressources but most of them are just bonus ressources and luxus ressources seem to be less available than in CiV.
The Scythian bonus of the double horsemen and saka horsemen archers is very strong to pump out a lot of units early on and riders seem to be very powerfull considering the "new" movement. But there is still the question how expensive the unit upkeep will be and if a Scythian Player can maintain a big horde for a longer time or is forced to sack cities.
But at the other side, the Scythians might fall off quite a lot in the later game if they couldnt use their early advantage enough. They still will have a combat bonus vs wounded units and will have the UI, but I cant tell now how strong both will be later in the game. So in my opinion Scythia is all about early aggressive expansion and to snowball from that point. So they will be very strong on pangaea maps, but not that strong on continents and of course archipelago. And yeah, until now we dont know what advantages the AI will have on higher difficulties.
But yeah, I think the way each civ will play wont change anymore until release, but how effective anyone will be is still pure guessing for me. But Boni like the additional policy card are straight forward and at the moment that seems very strong to me. Spain's conversion bonus is strong too imo considering that the religion victory looks like a hybrid of conquest and max faith generation strategy.
And of course the chinese eureka/inspiration bonus. We only seen quick speed game play so far. That bonus will be stronger in slower game speed I think. But here is the question, if the boost will be changed. Building a farm on wheat/rice will be always done instantly only the build time for the builder will change and china will always have 4 charges so they might use their UA better in slower game speed and therefor will be stronger.
Question question question, it really depends a lot on the numbers. And to be honest, there seem so many approaches until now and nearly every civ so far is interesting to me, it is really hard to tell which will be stronger.
Aztecs and Scythia are no brainer's with Scythia obviously only elite for early warmonger. Aztec's are just the snowballs from hell Military wise which feeds into everything else. The sheer synergy of all his abilities is relatively unmatched. More Land = More Luxuries = Stronger Armies = More Land and Faster Uptime of Cities. The amenities bonuses also makes wide work.
Brazil is strong, i have some reservations on actually how strong, but strong nevertheless. I am curious how much the 20% rebate actually is. Great people arent as powerful individually compared to 5 and they may also be limited. ( I do wonder what GPP are worth if you run out of great people) On top of this spending Gold/Faith on Great people means that you cant spend it on other things, there is an opportunity cost there. Investing in GPP also reduces the raw power of the ability. You can go GPP or Faith/Gold, there is a tradeoff one way or the other.
I am not so sure about Japan either. The Coastal part of Divine Wind is either amazingly restrictive or Meh. The Half duration Construction on the districts is pretty good but you are still clamped by Population. On top of this you will have less food yields due to the desire to densify your cities. Districts + less workable tiles = less raw yields which is especially important for food.Japan receives nothing that helps with the problems of having dense cities, just rewards if you do. The Electronics factory only shares the culture bonus(which further encourages dense cities) so you are really banking on Meji Restoration to make it all worthwhile. In saying that dense cities themselves provide their own adjacency benefits. Such as having two Harbour Districts from different Cities being both adjacent to a Commerce Hub etc. I would hesitate to put them in Tier 1 yet, though. Maybe just for archipelago maps etc so they can leverage Divine Wind Offensively as well as Defensively.
I do feel Each and every Civ has its Pro's and Cons and depending on map type, game type and play styles have the ability to be strong. You really need to consider whether Strong means best chance at the highest scoring Victory, or Best Chance at any Victory at the highest Difficulty, or just what is really fun and effective to play, albeit slower or less viable on higher difficulties.
But you have very little control over that.
Interestingly enough India will do a lot better on the higher difficulties with AI founding and spreading fast rather than on the lower where it can take 120turns to even get a second religion in a city.
Why not just conquer cities with the religions you wan't as India. You even got a early unique unit to help you with that.
If conquering is easy sure. Youd still need to then use your faith to spread yourself. And you dont have a lot of control over which follower belief they get or when they found.
Not saying they are bad. Hard to say. After all their uu looks damn strong. But the ua certainly looks rather dicey.
You can found a religion yourself and get access to the others by conquest. As a warmonger India look to be very strong.
Yes... you already said that.
That's a VERY valid point ! Hadn't tought about that !
And... it's also very true the other way around... Getting an AI India as an opponent on low difficulty might not be that alarming, but on higher difficulties, it might become very annoying...
Can Gandhi be anything else than annoying in this game ?
I have been following your discussion and now I’d like to share my thoughts on different civs, with some ideas of which VC a civ is good at and some ways to play it. I’m not a particularly experienced player, but I think have noticed some interesting things from the limited information I have.
Honestly, I think many of you underestimate America. Using its +5 combat bonus on home continent, it can be very aggressive right from the start. Founding Fathers allow you a rapid accumulation of very useful legacy bonuses, providing you with flexibility in changing governments. Both abilities are terrain-independent. America’s main weakness is the early lack of culture to hunt for governments, but it’s not really a grave one.
Early Government Options (EGO):
Autocracy: Bonus to Wonders isn’t bad, but Autocracy favors small empires, and I see America more as a wide player. It might be worth considering if you are going for Culture victory and there is no China or Egypt in the game, because you will not outwonder them, but otherwise I don’t see it as a very good option.
Oligarchy: Here we are talking! +4 to melee stacks nicely with home continent bonus, giving you a military lead pretty soon in the game. With it, every civ on your continent is your potential prey, as is every CS. And the bonus to XP is simply made for a domination game.
Classical Republic (CR): That’s an equally good option as Oligarchy, just not for war but for peaceful development. Bonus to Amenities is good, and with America’s UA you will get a lot of Great People that let you pursue any non-Domination victory.
Domination: 4/5: Yes! Beeline Political Philosophy, choose Oligarchy, conquer your neighbor, conquer/ Suzerain CS, don’t forget to build lots of encampments, use your home continent as you military base, build a large army and go conquering the world!
Scientific: 3/5: I presume you will need a lot of science and production, make sure you earn many GS and GEs with CR and Democracy and with your home bonus nobody will stop you before you complete all projects.
Cultural: 4/5: Needless to say, America is made for late game cultural dominance.
Religious: 3/5: It’s hard to judge now, because we don’t know much about religion, but Theocracy will sure be of a greater help for you than for others, providing you faster with a discount to faith purchases, so you can churn out a lot of missionaries and apostles, but America isn’t really a religious civ, IMO.
Current Average Rating (CAR): 3.5/5
Aztecs are not only warmongers and good for domination; other victory types are equally pursuable. Their main strength is boosting district construction with builders, Eagle Warriors are good, too, but will be rather quickly outdated. Nevertheless they let you push your empire forwards early on, so make good use of them. One more thing, when playing as Aztecs, Feudalism is a must, Pyramids too, if you manage to get them.
Auto: No, Aztecs like to build districts, not Wonders, skip it.
Olig.: It is an obvious choice, not much to say about it.
CR: while it is less obvious, it might be equal in strength to Oli, because even your new cities will get a district pretty fast, and bonuses for great people can be used to buy great generals. That will compensate the loss of power from Oli, Eagle Warriors are powerful enough even without it (does their ability work against CS units? You could use them to fuel your economy without risking war with your neighbors).
Merchant Republic (MR): Merchant Republic is a very flexible government, able to hold up to 3 military, up to 4 econ and up to 3 diplo cards. It is one of the best for big empires, giving +2 trade routes and a discount on gold purchases. It is an early option, because you can beeline it via Mil. Tradition, Mil. Training and Mercenaries. You can get the boosts to these pretty easily and they give you rather powerful bonuses to your military and economy. The downside is that you’ll have to stick to Chiefdom for too long and won’t be able to use the policies you’ve gathered. The way via Games and Recreation is also to consider, it will compensate you somewhat by giving GG points. Anyway, it’s an option to consider. America could try it too, but I don’t feel it’s optimal for it.
Dom.: 5/5: no comments!
S.: 3/5: You can build a lot of Campuses and IZs without fearing the rising district costs. And Spaceport will be built in no time too. Additionally, your neighbors won’t be able to stop you because of your strong army.
C.: 2/5: Yes, you can build a lot of TSs, but will their yields be high enough to compensate your lack of Wonders? I doubt it, but time will tell.
R.:4/5: Build a lot of Holy Sites, use faith from your UB and buy a lot of Missionaries and Apostles and with your many cities, your pressure will be rather high.
I belong to people, who think that Brazil’s UA is overestimated. It may give you an early science lead, but with Eurekas and Civic tree I feel that early science has lost its importance. Also, Brazil will face production problems due to rising district costs, even with jungle production yields. Furthermore, it will make its further expansion harder, since IZs don’t benefit from its UA. IMO, the power of Brazil lies in Great People and they require heavy culture investment. Brazil’s UD is also unlocked with Culture, this makes it even more important. Chichen-Itza is unlocked with Culture, too, by the way. Still, going for early science might be good, if you’re going for Science Victory, because the Street Carnival doesn’t give GS points. Otherwise, mix Science and Culture early and don’t worry, GP will pay out.
Auto.: Is worth considering, but Brazil is a city builder, it needs more Great People than Wonders.
Oli.: Not a very good option, Brazil has no incentive to go for conquest early on. Will be good, if you face particularly annoying barbarians.
CR: Obviously, the best early option and synergizes well with UD.
Dom.: 2/5: You may gain advanced units and Great Generals and Admirals, but without strong production basis, you won’t get much from your advancement.
S.: 3/5: You can easily gain GSs and jungle start will boost your progress, but what will happen after that?
C.: 4/5: The only problem with Culture Victory for you will be the rising costs of the Districts, make sure you build some Wonders for Culture bonuses, but it is the best VC for Brazil.
R.: 3/5: your main concern will be that Pedro’s ability doesn’t help you get the first Great Person in its category, it only helps with subsequent purchases. For Religion, you will need the first Great Prophet ASAP, so build many Holy Sites and use their bonus faith to buy many missionaries.
Previously, I didn’t give China much thought, but now I see that it has the potential to become one of the top civs in the game. That’s because it can pull out a trick that can boost its scientific progress significantly. This trick is pretty simple: 1) Gain access to Great Wall 2) Use Culture from it to beeline Recorded History 3) Make sure you build 2 Campuses ASAP, preferably in good locations 4) Build the Great Library 5) Say bye-bye to Brazil 6) Gain all the boosts for Ancient and Classical Techs + the Natural Philosophy policy that doubles the adjacency bonuses for your Campuses et voila! You can quickly research any tech you want, you will gain GSs faster and you can greatly increase your science output! Egypt can do the same trick, actually, it’s not that strong for it as for China, but still very powerful.
Auto.: One of the best options for China, especially if you want to continue building Wonders past Classical era.
Oli.: Not really, if you want to go wide, choose CR.
CR: Second-best option, mainly due to its bonus to GP generation, since many Wonders give GP points and you don’t lose your ability to construct them.
Dom.: 4/5: Due to the defensive nature of its UU, China doesn’t look like a militaristic leader, but with Great Wall providing Gold for purchases, and Great Generals from Wonders, especially Terracotta Army, you can launch full-scale invasions, while your home is absolutely secure.
S.:4/5: With the Great Library trick you can advance really quickly and gain many GSs and the Great Wall will hold off anyone, who tries to stop you.
C.:5/5: China will be one of the best cultural civs, because of the Great Wall and bonuses from Wonders.
R.:3/5: Well, you can get a Great Proph. early with Stonehenge and a little bit of luck, but you may lose later religious Wonders to France and you don’t have any extra sources of Faith, so I’m somewhat skeptical about this VC.
to be continued
Great post Indradiva but please use some formating, a blank row or two between each civ.
And also use some bold, at least for civs.
I think that this bonus can be either top tier to irrelevant based on difficulty.
We should all know by now that the real engine of domination, be it military, scientific or cultural, is having a sufficient number of well developped cities. Who cares if civ X has special bonus Y to science if its beaker output is a fraction of that of its larger, more powerful neighbour who has twice the population.
And that +5 to combat on home continent can be the decisive factor in managing to secure all the required real estate vital to be a super power in the late game. Or it could be irrelevant! It depends on the difficulty.
If you are playing chieftain against the AI, that bonus is meaningless. You are going to curbstomp the AI anyway, you already gets a bonus in any fight due to low difficulty and you'll be facing puny armies.
On the other hand, if you are playing only other humans or AI at high difficulty, then I like that bonus a lot.
Not if you're playing in low difficulty levels because that is your skill level.
The Scythians sound terrifying. Producing TWO mounted units at a time? That alone would be scary, but their unique unit is a horse archer (scary) that doesn't require horses (OMG)! And as if that wasn't enough, a bonus vs wounded opponents, and their units heal on killing an enemy unit.
Yeah, they're going to be a pain to start next to. Should be fun!
I could say pretty much any bonus is worthless cause I'd curb stomp on low difficulties without it. Not sure I understand your point.
2 light cavalry only. How many such units do we know of so far? Last I checked it was 1.
Industrial cavalry have no reason to be classified as anything but light. So including the UU, Scythians abilitywill work on 3 units.
Separate names with a comma.