[BTS] Stumbling back at Deity

[Pangaea]

Thanks for the plans and images I've ticked off a few games I had going, so will go back to this now. Well, maybe now. Am in the process of moving apartments too, so... you know.. maybe I should do something about that as well

It's nice that Giza happens to be on a hill, because presumably his stack will attack there. Due to HAs it's possible he 'accidentally' ends up forking my cities, which would be uncomfortable, but hopefully I can deal with his stack there. Does DOWing in advance really help in situations like this? My thinking has always been to DOW and then hit them hard on T0. Ideally taking 2-3 cities if you attack with mounted units.

On that note, what I had in mind was to get a solid Cuir force in the west, and then hit Basra and Bagdad straight away -- assuming I can finally claim that blasted cow tile.

 

[Fish Man]

Thanks for the plans and images I've ticked off a few games I had going, so will go back to this now. Well, maybe now. Am in the process of moving apartments too, so... you know.. maybe I should do something about that as well

It's nice that Giza happens to be on a hill, because presumably his stack will attack there. Due to HAs it's possible he 'accidentally' ends up forking my cities, which would be uncomfortable, but hopefully I can deal with his stack there. Does DOWing in advance really help in situations like this? My thinking has always been to DOW and then hit them hard on T0. Ideally taking 2-3 cities if you attack with mounted units.

On that note, what I had in mind was to get a solid Cuir force in the west, and then hit Basra and Bagdad straight away -- assuming I can finally claim that blasted cow tile.

Build culture for a few turns may solve it?

Also, if you all are really worried about "AI targeting most recently captured city", then declare and wait a turn for Sally's stack to move in before you yourself do the cuir stampede. Once an AI attack stack "locks on" to a city, they rarely or never change directions. I've seen Kublai holed up bombarding Hammy's 100% castle defenses with 2 trebs for 10 turns along with 30 other units just sitting there, while I casually took his whole empire.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Interlude. This is my 1 AD. I'll probably drop at this point as I am heavily spoiled about this map and the superiority of the War Chariot action has been clearly established. Also, I haven't been playing to win, which makes winning... troublesome :

Spoiler :

I have just spent 6 turns in Slavery and am probably in the process of returning to Caste System.
Stalin has Machinery, now. I'll get a few macemen out but won't DoW him. This cannot turn otherwise than a Renaissance break-out.
A good amount of infrastructure has been built but, I wonder, maybe I would rather have been working on the next scientist. I'm not in a position to easily bulb into Printing Press, now. Of course, you don't get Cuirassiers with Printing Press but... what am I to do ?

Spoiler :

This is the land. Some hammers are stored into macemen here and there.

Spoiler :

This is my Trireme (and my iron, incidentally).

Spoiler :

Those are the stats. As I recall, I have been operating with my 5 workers for the longest time.

Spoiler :

Those are the techs.Mansa is researching Guilds. Printing Press for Guilds + Engineering is a good trade, in my mind.
It's a little stupid to tech up aimlessly but I seem to have done just that.
Cheers.

 

[Anysense]

Stalin seems like a good target for maces and catapults. You are in desperate need of land and appear to have fallen into 'just a bit more research' trap. It does not look too bad though, I suppose you could wait until cuirs - they are not that far off.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Stalin seems like a good target for maces and catapults. You are in desperate need of land and appear to have fallen into 'just a bit more research' trap. It does not look too bad though, I suppose you could wait until cuirs - they are not that far off.

Yeah, I kinda wanted to use macemen as an intermediate unit, while teching up, but the timing seems off. It would be simpler, now, to just tech up to Cuirassiers.

In retrospect, I think it also shows how good the Music play was in Pangaea's game.
I'd have benefitted a lot more from the Music Artist and the burst, than I did from the earlier Education, which does nothing by itself.
I didn't think I could win that race at the time but Mansa has just gotten to Music.

 

[Pangaea]

Just wanted to pipe in saying I'm moving this weekend, so won't have time to play this save for a little while. Hopefully it goes smoothly and I'm back in action in a few days, but we'll see.

With Mansa just a step from Lib himself, it looks hard to get something much better with it than Nationalism. But at least you have tech view on him and therefore control the situation. However, maybe it could be an option to just Lib Nationalism soon-ish, and then start on Taj? It's terribly expensive without marble ofc, but if you get there first anyway, that's a secured Golden Age, improved economy, hammers, GPP and all the rest that comes with it. Will boost your speed to cannons.

I've not checked the save, no time right now, but Stalin still looks very backwards in the above tech image, or is that an old one? Banging him up with maces+trebs still looks like a tasty option, but you need to go all in and whip everywhere. There is also a third ring forest west of Heliopolis that you can grab, before it goes (back) to Isabella. Anyway, Lib practically done in 1AD is seriously fast!

Will you keep playing, or was the intention to play to 1AD?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Just wanted to pipe in saying I'm moving this weekend

With Mansa just a step from Lib himself, it looks hard to get something much better with it than Nationalism.

Will you keep playing, or was the intention to play to 1AD?

Good luck !

Yes, the intention was to play to 1AD and provide you with a peaceful shadow.
I didn't want to enter a War Chariot contest of some sort and preferred to keep things simple.

I'm confident I could Lib --> Mil Trad (I traded Paper to Mansa). However, I'd much rather have gone for the marble play I advocated for in your game, follow the Music line and then Lib --> Nationalism, start on the Taj. This is in retrospect. The lack of any metal made that line look very... dangerous.
Iron and marble are my regrets for this game. I was very satisfied with the opportunity to switch into Caste System in the BCs, however.

 

[Gumbolt]

Size 17 capital by 1ad is always impressive.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Size 17 capital by 1ad is always impressive.

lol yeah, I had limited ambitions when entering this game but growing Thebes as high as possibly by 1 AD was one of my secret objectives
I also wanted the beaker output to be as high as possible. Switching into Slavery in 150 BC kinda hurt that, since as stagnated around 300pbt for those last six turns.

By the way, I did a quick run to T65 the other day and...
... How come we didn't settle on the PH 2S1E from Thebes ? It is known on T0 that the location has 2 plains cows and a corn to pump out chariots. This is ideal.
As we discussed early in this thread, whipping chariots is no good. 2x plains cows is an extremely favourable setup.
So I speed-played that. Get a worker, grow to size 3, go settler, worker, worker (tech path AH, BW, skip Fishing into Pottery).
Settle Memphis 1S1W of the horses. Whip a settler for 2x fish when Thebes slowly grows to size 6 (by this time Russia is 3/4th dead already).
It felt... Maintenance was a worry but the conquering part felt... generous.
Solved.

 

[Pangaea]

Starting out, we didn't know there would be horses anywhere, nor if a rush like that would be feasible. In hindsight things are easier.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Absolutely. I think I'd also have SIPed in the blind. The question came to me, however, seeing how efficient WC can be. A thing that I had forgotten.

 

[Pangaea]

Yes, they are very good. Higher than base strength, but also immune to first strikes. That's a pretty big deal when mostly up against archers.

Will see if I can get some hours into this game today. The move is far from done, but at least I'm in the new apartment now, with the computer hooked up.

 

[Pangaea]

Allright, let's see about this game. Played to almost 800AD/T150.

Spoiler :

To be sure it happened in time, I ran culture in Pi-Ramesses to get the Cow, which we did two turns later. In 475AD Gunpowder is researched, and Cuirs are lined up almost everywhere. Some infra is still needed in a few cities.

Spoiler :

I waited a few turns extra to be able to whip some infra with nice OR-overflow, but in 520AD we go Theo for (often) an extra promotion. Unfortunately the missionary failed on the island, but otherwise we have Buddhism everywhere. In the same turn, both Isabella and Gilgamesh became friendly. Though it went a bit back and forth for the whole turnset. I traded a bit, which not all of them liked. But we got our hands on Printing Press, Optics and Drama, which was nice, and much later Guilds.

Saladin has built up a sizeable stack in the east near Giza, and he just got Guilds.

Spoiler :

As you see in that image, a couple workers have roaded for him, and with 20 Cuirs I figured it was time to release them. Hopefully he would invade and not upgrade. I removed the warrior MP and left the city empty, so Saladin wouldn't get any crazy ideas.

Had parked some Cuirs within reach of both Bagdad and Basra. He kept sending units around, so wasn't sure where I needed them most.

Spoiler :

The start goes well.

Spoiler :

Bagdad and Basra falls, but unfortunately there is a cata left standing in Anjar. We take it next turn, tho.

Meanwhile Saladin invades with his stack, thankfully without any naughty upgrades. Feels very unsafe over there, but we'll try to deal with it.

Spoiler :

Brought the warrior back and upgraded him to a Pikeman (155g), and whipped the Musketman next turn, which got CG2 promos. Overflow went into Walls, which was then 1-popped. Not strictly needed, but figured I may as well, and then put that OF into a Cuir.

We attacked with what was possible, removed most catas in the process and some maces and HAs. He did remove most of the defence before the walls came up. Then threw all he had at us, which was a bit surprising tbh.

Spoiler :

Seems like they vanished!

Normally I'd probably have gotten out some Longbows for protection, but err... we can't. Lacking Hunting and Archery

Throughout I've been whipping mercilessly. Even did the capital once. The HE city has been left alone, because I want it to pump out units for future wars. It's not very strong on hammers tbh, but it's enough. If I get that far, it can start to get workshops when they don't suck any more.

After losing that stack and some more cities, including Medina with the shrine, he's hurting pretty bad and is willing to give us Guilds for peace. We keep pushing. I probably overdo it a bit, and wind up risking the super medic to take a city as we move closer to size 18 Mecca.

Spoiler :

Enough culture was removed so that Cuirs could reinforce the city. Phew.

Around now he was willing to capitulate. However, being that close to such a juicy city, it felt wrong to stop. Fostat fell further east. Mecca took longer than I hoped due to heavy reinforcements, but we got it eventually.

Spoiler :

Naturally he was willing to cap now, but the default offer was a size 7 city Aden (which we besieged heavily), but not Banking. I sniped what we could reach, busted some tiles, and tried to swap out Aden for Banking. He agreed, and becomes a vassal. I also asked him ever so nicely to swap to Buddhism. Suddenly Isabella loves him. It may not be realistic, perhaps she is too strong, or soon will be, but it would have been cool to peace vassal Isabella. Sadly she fell down to +9 Pleased, but there is still room for improvement from religion and civic. If it happens soon enough, we can get RepParts from her too.

Cuirs are running rampant here, but this is an overview of the expanded Egyptian empire.

Spoiler :

Although it was terribly expensive at 230 a piece, I did decide to upgrade some WCs. A few were well-promoted and one or two were for better city defence in risky situations.

edit: Almost forgot, I forced Marble out of Saladin and started on Taj Mahal. I'm sure somebody else will beat me, but hopefully we can get a decent chunk of failgold out of it. For some odd reason Isabella didn't spend her GE on Taj. Weird. Maybe she had started on it elsewhere and therefore went for something else..?

Also, for the first time in probably thousands of years, Thebes has taken back the second corn. Woot!

Where do we go from here? I'm thinking Wang next, although it's a little awkward due to the jungle and suchlike (I gifted him Muscat btw, which made him Pleased). Isabella is the natural target really, but she's close to Conquistadors and it would have been very useful to get her as peace vassal. May not be possible though, especially once she gets Conqs and mass upgrade the lot.

 

[Anysense]

Congrats, the game is in the bag! I'm leaning towards attacking WK first. He is bigger, a better techer and protective to boot, hence potentially a lot more trouble once he got rifles. But it should not be too difficult to take him out now. Watch out for AP, although you can afford to defy resolutions its best to avoid them altogether.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks. It feels like it yeah, just keep going and eventually transition to Cavalry, and hope that is enough.

Is it possible to peace vassal somebody during a war? Wondering if Isabella may still be willing while I wage war on Wang. But don't recall if the term is even more weird than the other stuff it can pull off, heh.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Well played, that looked clean !
Some thoughts :

Spoiler :

Please let up some cities. St Petersburg, for example, would love to work some tiles.
With almost 40 units, you can still whip but enter whip cycles at (example) size 8-->6 rather than 5-->3. The loss in food efficiency will be well made up by the gain in tiles worked.

The jungled rice in the isthmus is still not claimed by Korean culture. You can use that as a starting point for your invasion and gain several turns towards Seoul and the like.
What's wrong with jungle ? Jungle is green, green is good. You would need more than 15 workers to develop it, though.

You can already bribe Gilgamesh on Mansa or Wang. Isabella would agree to a bribe against Mansa.
Timbuktu has the AP, which is the main concern in a war with Wang.
--> Get 30+ units in position, DoW and start a world war. That will insulate you against retaliation.

Side note on whipping : now that you have your mass of units, don't whip green farms.

Spoiler :

Take this city, for example. Let's look at its growth rate. What does it produce vs what is required to grow a size ?
City size : Food surplus / Food bin.
At size 2 : +7F / 12F
At size 3 : +8F/13F
At size 4 : +9F/14F
At size 5 : +10F/15F
+10F/15F is exactly a 2/3rd ratio. If we compare this growth rate to that at size 2, we can conclude that it is strictly better.

There can be a little tile sharing between the 3 cities that are in the area to optimize the use of farms, the iron can be worked here and there,
But this city would be more productive if it did operate at a higher size.

(Yeah, I get that : "earlier is better" ; but now that you have 40 cuirassiers, you're past that point.)
(I'll also agree that the gain I mention in this particular case (Byblos) is marginal.)

Cheers.

 

[Pangaea]

Yeah, I see that, and kinda agree. It was hard to whip away good tiles to begin with, especially villages, but then you get into the flow of it. "Cuir can be whipped --> Whip Cuir --> Kill stuff".

At this stage of the game, an economy doesn't matter as much any more. Well, as long as I can get to Rifling somehow that is. Cavs are a pretty big upgrade on Cuirs tbh.

I'll play some more and report later. War will be waged on Wang, the poor lad

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yeah, I see that, and kinda agree. It was hard to whip away good tiles to begin with, especially villages, but then you get into the flow of it. "Cuir can be whipped --> Whip Cuir --> Kill stuff".

Sure thing, agreed. The "optimal whip cycle" is not what matters most when you are still building towards critical mass.
I can see a size 9 city gradually losing control over grassland farms and reaching size 2 to help speed up that process, reaching said critical mass, that is.

You're looking at about 4-5 turns to set up your army at Wang's border. You won't lose any units in the meantime.
I think it's a fine time to grow some tiles but maybe rushing towards a 60 units army is the better choice

I agree that the focus on the economy is sort of obsolete, at this point. I guess I just wanted to mention that thing about grass farms and whip cycles.

gl

 

[Anysense]

You can't have too many units, because if you do - open second front. Still, whipping 4->2 may be a little too brutal even in this game where research is not very important, as it can hardly go further than Rifling. I'm not sure about Byblos, though. It does not have any good tiles apart from food. Sure, whipping it 7->5 is more efficient than 4->2, but you have to invest a fair bit of food to grow 3 times. Thats 48, isn't it? Roughly 1 cuirassier worth of investment... Might be worth it now that building units is not urgent.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

You can't have too many units, because if you do - open second front. Still, whipping 4->2 may be a little too brutal even in this game where research is not very important, as it can hardly go further than Rifling. I'm not sure about Byblos, though. It does not have any good tiles apart from food. Sure, whipping it 7->5 is more efficient than 4->2, but you have to invest a fair bit of food to grow 3 times. Thats 48, isn't it? Roughly 1 cuirassier worth of investment... Might be worth it now that building units is not urgent.

I guess the way the game may have been solved between 2014 and 2021 is really about unit mass.
Not city management.
My point about grassland farms was exclusively about city management.