Stupid, and very annoying, AI Diplomacy

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MartialDoctor

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Messages
11
Location
Taipei, Taiwan
Ok, so this is a bit of a rant, but I think a worthy one.

I have been steadily moving up in difficultly levels and am now on Emperor. Now, I don't mind that the AI is more difficult to trade and deal with; I think that's good. However, what is happening in my current game is outright ridiculous.

I basically was at war with the Balseraphs and was attacked from my rear flanks by the Doviello. Not sure if this was on purpose but it wasn't a bad move. Anyways, after losing a city and some settlements, I push them back, start taking their cities, and, eventually, get them to capitulate.

I immediately demand all of their mana, which they accept, and then convert them to my religion, Empyrean, which makes them neutral. This eases things a bit between us.

Later in the game, they research Ashen Veil, switch religions, and declare war on me? :( So, I decide to whip up on them a bit more to make them realize that I can take them over whenever I please... I take over two more of their cities, leaving them with just one, and they capitulate again.

This time, though, when I demand their mana, they refuse and declare war. :confused: This gets me both annoyed and wondering what the AI is thinking.

I then have to get them down to one unit in their city before they will capitulate again. This time, I decide to trade for one of their body mana. They make an enormous demand for it. I finally succumb since I need this mana to complete the Tower of Alterations...

So, now, the Tower is almost done and, guess what, they declare war again. I'm fed up with this and, before I can get them to capitulate again, my allies, Basium, take over his last city. Which, by the way, was the first time Basium did anything at all.

I even loaded up a save and tried to bribe Doviello, my vassal, so that they wouldn't break off. But that didn't work either.

This is just ridiculous... the AI should have some sense of self-preservation and realize that if I can outright destroy him, he should become my vassal and give me anything that I want. I could understand if the AI then tries to find a way to change vassals to someone that he likes, who could also protect him from me. But such rampant suicidal behavior is horrible.. :rolleyes:

On retrospect, I see that the last time that war was declared, it may have been the cause of Basium, since Doviello was Ashen Veil wouldn't even give me the option of switching them back over to Empyrean. Still, the first changing of religion, of not giving in to my demands after I force them to capitulate the 2nd time, and of not giving me a choice to force them back to Empyrean was outright ridiculous.

Ok, end of rant :)
 
It seems like there is a AI behavior where they won't give you everything when they basically know you'll just kill them anyways. For example if you get an AI who has a big tech lead down to there very last city they still probably won't give you ALL there techs for peace. I think it's basically to make it less of a double win mechanic. Otherwise the you could just get everything and then kill them again 10 turns later.
 
Would you want to keep playing your civ if you knew your situation was hopeless and you were just going to be a helpless slave for your master civ? Maybe you would give them a finger and fight till the end. It's reasonable. Think about it, you're not even allowed to have your palace mana? What is the point of going on living?

There's plenty of other AI stupid-ness to complain about though, like begging you for tech even though they have 3 times the amount of tech that you do but won't trade them because they don't like you or you're "too advanced". Well if you don't like me then don't bother me. And then on top of it you get -1 for refusing. Then FFH adds all the negatives for random events and mismatched alignments because everyone knows that BTS just didn't have enough ways for the AI to hate you.
 
A good way to force vassals to give you palace mana is to declare on someone else.

If you (and thus they) are at war, they virtually never seem to refuse the palace mana demand.
 
Angrenost said:
Just some pics to the mix...


Note Capria's state religion.

Click to expand...

1) I'm guessing you have the No Tech Brokering option enabled?

2) Note that wfyabta is NOT related to technological levels, but how many technologies you have traded with other civilizations. In normal BTS, it is not uncommon for this to happen(but it is much more common in FFH, because ALL the leaders have a wfyabta of 5, as opposed to BTS which ranged from 5 to 20).





That said, AI diplomacy in BTS in general is pretty poor, and it only gets worse when more civilizations are added into the game. With 12 or more civs, it's not uncommon to see everyone wanting you to declare war on everyone else. It's even worse that there is no neutral option; why can't I opt out like Switzerland?
 
phizuol said:
Would you want to keep playing your civ if you knew your situation was hopeless and you were just going to be a helpless slave for your master civ? Maybe you would give them a finger and fight till the end. It's reasonable. Think about it, you're not even allowed to have your palace mana? What is the point of going on living?
Click to expand...

Well, what would have been smart for the AI, would have been to build up his army while he still had 3 major cities and taken over the barbarian one to his north, which he did. Then, once he had built up a strong army, he could have either become the vassal of another Evil civ that hated me or, at least, broke off and signed a defensive pact with them. Either of those would have annoyed me but, at least, would have made sense and been what a smart AI would have done.

Committing suicide by switching your religion to the Veil when one of your Overlords is Basium... that just makes no sense. Especially when your Overlords could squash you like a bug. If giving up his palace mana was too much for him, he could have come back and said, "We are canceling this deal." I would have come back and only demanded the body mana... that is, after all, all I had wanted at the time.

Also, it is very strange that, at the point I am now, he won't even allow me to convert him to my religion. I mean, he's my vassal... I should be at least able to make that demand, right (Empyrean is in his city)? It's not even listed as an option!
 
iamdanthemansta said:
It seems like there is a AI behavior where they won't give you everything when they basically know you'll just kill them anyways. For example if you get an AI who has a big tech lead down to there very last city they still probably won't give you ALL there techs for peace. I think it's basically to make it less of a double win mechanic. Otherwise the you could just get everything and then kill them again 10 turns later.
Click to expand...


Exactly. This is what i remember from a discussion when Warlords first came out. I have never seen it myself, but force-vassalized AIs will on occasion not meet all your demands and rather get killed, and the reasoning for that was gameplay (weakening vassalization), not realism.
Note that at this point they have to declare war on you, because the only options forcevassalization rules leaves them is to either give in to demands or declare war. As far as i know, that's only true for ressources, not techs though.
 
Actually you are the one declaring war on them. Basium your ally autodeclares on followers of the Ashen Veil, even if they are your vassals. So don't blame them for being suicidal.

Mana valuation is very screwy though and should be rebalanced. Right now the AI values mana like ~16 normal resources.
 
I lowered the AIValues of the Mana resources from 90 to 5 in Wildmana and I think it is better now, though still far from perfect.
 
Angrenost said:
Yes I do, but how does it affect that situation as I researched Orders from Heaven myself?
Click to expand...

The AI will refuse to trade for a technology with No Tech Brokering if they have already researched 50% of the beakers. Because Capria is currently researching it(or at least started), she won't trade for it, because she wants to be able to trade it with other civilizations.
 
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