Stupid, upset immigrants!

[Bamspeedy]

I destroyed the Germans, they no longer existed. Since I didn't like where their cities were I starved them, then rushed (with cash, I had been under Republic for centuries) a settler when population was down to 1 or 2. This abandons the city and I get a (German) settler to place where I wanted. I build the city, and see the governor has selected him as an entertainer. What could he be so mad about? "We will never forget the cruel oppression you bore down upon us". Ok, fine, his previous leader must have used the whip on his fellow citizens, so I'll send over a settler of my own to join the city, so I'd have at least some productive people. WRONG! Apparantly, that one German is pissing my American people off, too ! All three citizens had to be entertainers! 85% cruel opression, 15% its too crowded (Regent Level), and I had two luxuries connected to it.

This never happened on any previous versions, so I'm guessing some possibilities (most likely first):

1. The cumultive unhappiness from the whip (to prevent excessive pop-rushing) is carried along with the people, not just the city. One mad person can make 5 other people mad even when moved to a different city. Too bad you couldn't donate these ungrateful citizens to your rival .

2. That German is still angry at me for destroying his civ, even though his civ no longer exists.

3. New feature that starvation causes unhappiness?

I'm including a saved game. The city in question is Cincinnatti. The town farthest west in the American civ.

 

[Carbon_Copy]

I'm assuming here that you had JUST defeated the Germans. And if this was during the Despotism period of Germany (or after Germany got ahold of Nationalism), then what you're experiencing is a negative happiness from all of *Germany's* whipping just prior to your taking it. That this now gets transferred with the settlers is a new one on me, and in that case, you're much better off bringing in settlers of your own nationality to settle, and turning those foreign malcontents into workers.

My biggest complaint about the patch is that the player is penalized too harshly for whippings and draftings that he didn't even do, and it is completely bogus that the citizens can't discriminate between the civ that whipped them, and the civ that "liberated" them from such abuse. It wouldn't be so bad if the penalty were still only 20 turns, but for some unfathomable reason they doubled the penalty, which means that these cities are worthless for centuries to come after you've captured them because the AI thought that it would be nicer to have 4 conscript riflemen than a functioning city.

 

[Bamspeedy]

No one was near Nationalism, yet. I can't remember if he had still been under Depotism yet or not (most of the other civs had received the government techs, but some hadn't). It was from his last city, and I had all the other civs allied with me, and I imagine he was whipping like crazy to get those military units out, when he was cornered.

Edit: Yes, I had just defeated the Germans about 10 turns before this saved game. Took a few turns before I realized it, then to get a settler to the city.

 

[Bamspeedy]

I have learned that the AI now uses the whip excessively. If you look at Egypt and Rome on the other island in that game (both pretty technologically backwards). Most of Egypt's cities (Memphis in particular) must have been the victim of the whip. All 3 of Memphis's citizens are entertainers. Many other cities have more entertainers than are needed. Several turns later I had looked at Egypt after they signed peace with Rome. Rome with 2 cities (population of 2 and 3), were able to fend off Egypts 10 cities, because all but one of them were limited to a size 1 entertainer city! Either this was from excessive whipping prior under Despot, or this is extreme war-weariness.

 

[Umask077]

Are you sure there truely dead? I had one game where I whiped out the egyptians. There was no land left to settle, They had a galley (spying told me it had a settler and a warrior in it.

The computer has this one galley off my coast and sue for peace even though Ive destroyed all there cities and been told they were wiped out. So I move up a ship and sink it. Game crashes.

Reload and try again. Same thing..... Hrmmmm. Delima, specially since the next turn they declare war on another civ. So im faced with a civ at war, with one unit. If it dies they game crashes and I dont want to start over. I had to go to war to defend the egyptians. I finally captured and all desert city from someone and gave it to egypt as a gift. sunk the galley and took the city again but it was wierd.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Are you sure there truely dead? I had one game where I whiped out the egyptians. There was no land left to settle, They had a galley (spying told me it had a settler and a warrior in it.

Yes, they are completely dead. Got notification of it and everything. I finally decided to build a worker, hoping the German would leave to become that worker. Well, he did, but my American people are still mad in that city!

 

[shirleyrocks]

According to Soren, the 1.17f version of pop rush penalty is cumulative. That is, the more and more you use it, the more and more unhappy your citizens are...to the point that they can experience 'negative happiness'. If the citizens have been whipped time and time again, you can get to the point, for example, where it would take a temple, ivory, and 2 military units just to keep one person happy. I agree with you that you shouldn't be penalized for Germany's actions (their citizens should even be relieved to live under your peaceful rule!), but I'm pretty sure that's what is going on anyway.

It does seem like the AI cracks the whip quite a bit. Any (well, almost any) smaller sized city I capture usually takes a LOT of work to get back on it's feet.

 

[Bamspeedy]

According to Soren, the 1.17f version of pop rush penalty is cumulative. That is, the more and more you use it, the more and more unhappy your citizens are...to the point that they can experience 'negative happiness'. If the citizens have been whipped time and time again, you can get to the point, for example, where it would take a temple, ivory, and 2 military units just to keep one person happy. I agree with you that you shouldn't be penalized for Germany's actions (their citizens should even be relieved to live under your peaceful rule!), but I'm pretty sure that's what is going on anyway.

Yeah, but I built a whole new city, that stupid settler carried his unhappiness over from the abandoned city.

Update: It's now 400 years later (1340 A.D), Built J.S. Bach's Cathedral, have 3 luxuries going into the city, entertainment expense at 20%. Get 3 content citizens. If I add another settler I get 1 happy, 3 content, 1 unhappy (57% oppression!).

 

[Ironikinit]

I ran into this problem.

I fought a war against Germany and wiped it out. I didn't like the placement of Leipzig, so I built a worker and disbanded it. A settler from one of my cities (NOT a captured city) put down a new city one square from the Leipzig site.

That was 110 BC. The city cannot put any tiles into production due to unhappiness (100% We cannot forget your cruel oppression). It's now 700 AD.

Saved games available on request. Is it possible that starving the city out ruins the site forever?

 

[Carbon_Copy]

Is it possible that you had done a goodly amount of whipping in the source city, except that the city it came from had happiness modifiers already in place (temple, MP, lux, etc.) so you couldn't tell? If you removed your garrison from the city that settler came from and you sold the temple, would that city riot because of your whipping? If you had whipped the city any time within 40 turns of the previous time you whipped it, you'll get another 40 turns of whip-whininess tacked on.

 

[Ironikinit]

I did no whipping in that game. None that I recall. Saves on request.

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by Carbon_Copy
My biggest complaint about the patch is that the player is penalized too harshly for whippings and draftings that he didn't even do, and it is completely bogus that the citizens can't discriminate between the civ that whipped them, and the civ that "liberated" them from such abuse

Ironic, isn't it? (Or should that be Ironik? )

Changing the 40-turn effect back to 20 (or 10) is easy enough with civ3edit.

Getting an "unhappiness reset" when you take over a city would probably be a code change.

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by Umask077
Are you sure there truely dead? I had one game where I whiped out the egyptians. There was no land left to settle, They had a galley (spying told me it had a settler and a warrior in it.

The computer has this one galley off my coast and sue for peace even though Ive destroyed all there cities and been told they were wiped out. So I move up a ship and sink it. Game crashes.

Sure looks like a bug.

Darn those boundary conditions ...

 

[dowski]

well, I think this thread answered a question for me...in my current game, i have just wiped the Iriquois off my continent, and taken a few of their cities. After taking their cities, I found out that the people had been whipped into shape a bit too often, and the cities were worthless. So I abandoned those cities.

Well, I still have a few that are building workers to disband the city, when all of a sudden, some of *my* (Chinese) cities start going nuts! A city that was all fine and happy all of a sudden gets 6 unhappies 2 contents and 2 entertainers! The reason for the unhappieness is of course, "We cannot forget the cruel...blah, blah, blah". The thing is, I *never* rushed by whipping the whole game!

The only thing I can think is that the conquered Iriqouis cities have poisoned my cities! I know that this is just a game, but I have spent a few hours on this particular one and it is quite a bummer to now see it all falling apart because of a stupid bug. Oh well...what's for dinner??

dowski

 

[Ironikinit]

I was thinking it was a German thing, so dow's post was interesting.

 

[IronicWarrior19]

Haven't seen it happen on deity yet.

 

[GourmetArtist]

Same thing happened to me. The only thing I can think of is turning them into workers to get them out of my city. Maybe trade him off as a slave or something.

 

[panzerfaust]

you spelled cincinnati wrong

which is especially grievous considering our importance, reputation and stature among our fellow americans


(yeah, we're hicks)

 

[Moulton]

I'm still on 1.16-- havging trouble staying on line long enougt to download it. Last game, I took the chinese. They wer communist at the time, but saw no evidence of previous whipping. They had small army, and had been at peace for centuries. But each city it took would only support entertainers. The first and all other citizens were unhappy... And I had 8 luxuries, connected to all cities...
It was close enough to win by domination that it didnt really matter, they were not going to be productive anyway, but it still seemed strange.

I have never used draft of whipped for war production. Have sacrificed citizens in early game, but go to republic as soon as procticible, and usually stay or go on to democracy.

 

[dowski]

Well, all I've got to say on this one is that I guess I won't be capturing anymore cities. If they'd rather be razed and turned into workers, that's just fine. So much for my current game though. Let's all raise the proverbial glass for 1.18f.

dowski