Sub-Par graphics, congrats firaxis.
- Thread starter Mr_Wonka
- Start date
Wahahahahahaha!!!
xienwolf
Deity
/sigh... I see this mistake made SO many places. But I thought that the modding-centric CivFanatics would be immune to it.
It is INSANELY rare for someone to be good at both graphics AND coding AI.
It is absolutely UNHEARD OF for a company to slap both of those in the job description of a single individual.
Someone hired professionally to churn out graphics will NEVER be expected within that same job to even TOUCH the AI code, let alone understand any of it.
While programmers aren't fungible, money is.
And money produces programmers.
So yes, time spent on polished graphics can take away from time spent on polished AI.
Generally, graphics polish is done in order to make your product "seem professional" to a casual glance, which has the nice bonus of locking out the "less professional" competition. Of course, the same is true of marketing dollars.
And money produces programmers.
So yes, time spent on polished graphics can take away from time spent on polished AI.
Generally, graphics polish is done in order to make your product "seem professional" to a casual glance, which has the nice bonus of locking out the "less professional" competition. Of course, the same is true of marketing dollars.
Dale
Mohawk Games Developer
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While programmers aren't fungible, money is.
And money produces programmers.
So yes, time spent on polished graphics can take away from time spent on polished AI.
Generally, graphics polish is done in order to make your product "seem professional" to a casual glance, which has the nice bonus of locking out the "less professional" competition. Of course, the same is true of marketing dollars.
The budget is worked out and allocated well before production begins. Art would've been allocated some percentage, coding some other percentage, administration another percentage, etc etc. If you hire another artist, it takes away from the artist percentage only, not the coding percentage. So your comment is totally wrong.
How do I know? I work in the industry.
I have to agree with the OP. I'm not asking for super million-poly terrain with Crysis shaders, but the terrains need to blend together a lot smoother. A desert should be randomly curved, not a just a perturbation of a box. If you look at the alpha pictures even the forests and borders are obviously in a hexagonal array. If you're reading this, Firaxis, please work on the terrain transitions
Hiring another artists doesn't take away from the percentage -- it uses up the money under that category.
And they never consider a different percentage of code vs artist expenditures?
If that consideration exists (or even can exist), money spent on art does take away from money spend on code, assuming that the amount spent on the game is held constant.
I've worked on projects with extensive UI teams and small coding teams. I've worked on projects with large coding teams, and small UI teams. The allocation of resources between art and code isn't a magic figure that comes from god -- it is determined (hopefully for the investor) by what sells.
Art sells to many people. Code (such as better AI) sells to other people.
I don't mind a highly polished Civ game that has worse art. Other people really care about art. Money spent on art, beyond what the screenshots demonstrated (well, maybe improved rivers and national borders), would be wasted on me.
On the other hand, barring the game being complete garbage, I'm a reasonably safe sale (on this iteration). The ones they care more about convincing to buy are the marginal sales, which often care more about superficial stuff like artwork polish.
Then again, I never bought the call to power branch of Civ, nor Civ Revolution, because their approach didn't appeal to me. I did buy the Alpha Centauri "branch" of Civ, and it wasn't because of the awesome graphics.
I'd like this thread stickied so we can all laugh when CiV is released.
Even in its alpha stages, I think the graphics look pretty good.
Knee jerk overreaction FTL.
Even in its alpha stages, I think the graphics look pretty good.
Knee jerk overreaction FTL.
xienwolf
Deity
I have to agree with the OP. I'm not asking for super million-poly terrain with Crysis shaders, but the terrains need to blend together a lot smoother. A desert should be randomly curved, not a just a perturbation of a box. If you look at the alpha pictures even the forests and borders are obviously in a hexagonal array. If you're reading this, Firaxis, please work on the terrain transitions
In order to get the terrain to blend better, you have to allow a terrain to "spill over" into another hex. To what degree are you willing to have that happen, and which terrain should dominate into which other terrain's hex? If I have a single desert tile in the middle of a heavily forested region, should I BARELY spot the dirt between the trees to realize there is a tile of desert? Or should that desert, since it is the oddity, spill into every surrounding tile, making it appear that there is a HUGE swath of desert in the area, and keeping me from thinking about settling in such sub-par land, when in reality I can easily manipulate city placement to completely cover all the terrain except that one hex and have amazing cities?
There is also consideration of the graphical capabilities to account for every possible "spill over" event in a randomly constructed map. Each possibly combination of terrain must be considered, since each tile has 6 neighbors, this is an IMMENSE number of permutations with even a mere 3 types of tiles, and there are, by the pictures, far more than that.
Going for the less obscure and outlandish examples like a desert in the middle of forest, how about an area where grassland meets plains. If you allow one to spill into the other, and there is also a resource on the tile which has been "spilled into" will you be able to tell graphically AT ALL which terrain type it is? Do you prefer a "pretty blending" of terrain, even if it means you are CONTANTLY having to mouse-over each hex to see what it really is?
And speaking of resources, should they as well spill out of their hex? Now you are begging to get jokes about swimming sheep should this attempt to get the hexes "hidden" lead to an inevitable misalignment along the coastal regions.
Typically, it is VERY difficult to re-allocate any funds. You see this in essentially every industry. Wherever you work (or at school if you don't work yet) watch closely around October, end of the fiscal year. People will buy outlandish items just to use up their budget, otherwise the budget will be lower the next year. They will not pool the extra cash to where it needs to be, they will waste it on frivolous things in the location it was assigned, because re-assigning it requires "red tape" be broken through. This is a process of explaining the real-world details of your job to investors who are only interested in number breakdowns and graphical representations of trends. Trying to sift through how things "really work" at every level of the place they are investing their money would be impractical for them.
If it turns out that one department is under budget and the entire budget scheme is coming to a close, the funds allocated are more likely to be rolled into the next project, returned to the investors, or shifted to marketing than to ever be moved into a department which appears to be close to going over budget. Not that when you are THAT close to the end of a budget you are even contemplating the hiring process which is relevant to the discussion of hiring an extra AI programmer (something which must be done YEARS before the project comes to a close, essentially the first quarter after the budget divisions are settled on. Because within each budget of "art" and "code" and the like, there are sub-budgets of "salary," "benefits," "equipment" and other such considerations. Those are slightly more mutable, but still very difficult to adjust. You really know exactly how many people you will be hiring and at what salary as soon as the project begins.)
Jawa'sRevenge
Warlord
Civ was never about graphics. If CiV had the graphics of Civ III, that would be fine. I want them to spend time making a game focused game-play, stability, and mobility. Fancy graphics are unnecessary, and could always be improved on later, by this forums amazing graphics people.
Dale
Mohawk Games Developer
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Exactly, another artist takes money from the percentage of total budget allocated to the art dept. If the art dept doesn't have the money, then the artist is not employed.
Bull, the art and code sections each have their own budgets. It is up to the dept heads to ensure they work within that budget, or explain to the Producer why they stuffed up. A good Producer will even be able to tell if a dept is on track to spend too much or too little and work out adjustments. But that RARELY happens.
No it doesn't. Simple example:
Budget $200,000 for art and coding teams. (Allocated a long time before production starts)
$100,000 to art and code each.
Art wants another artist. Well, they'd better find the money within their own $100,000 to find an artist, or they don't get an artist.
If art has the money for an artist they hire them.
No impact on code budget AT ALL.
No, the figure is NOT determined by what sells. How can you come up with a figure determined by sales figures if the product doesn't exist to sell yet?
The investor does some market research to ascertain (in other words GUESS) a feel for how many may potentially sell. The investor then determines what they want to make from it (in other words PROFIT) and potential retail price (in other words INCOME). The studio Producer works out what they believe the potential development cost is (in other words EXPENSES) and informs the investor.
If INCOME * GUESS - EXPENSES = PROFIT, where PROFIT is a satisfactory positive number to the investor, they give the green light to go ahead. See that figure for EXPENSES? That's when the budget for the art dept (and consequently how many artists they can employ) is determined.
You CANNOT (except under extreme emergency situations) change the budget once the investor signs off on it.
They look fine to me. I have never worried too much about graphics though. I just care about the games under-lying functionallity, which in this case entails improved diplomacy, etc... but I am confident whatever is developed as the final product will be to my liking.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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I also have nothing against the graphics on the screenshots. And agree that Civ is more about gameplay than graphics anyway.
mr. poopyhead
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2006
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i'd rather firaxis have spent the last 5 years making gameplay improvements and adding units and buildings that contribute to better gameplay, rather than working on the graphics engine....
in short, i won't really mind if there are no graphical improvements in civ5, as long as the gameplay is better...
in short, i won't really mind if there are no graphical improvements in civ5, as long as the gameplay is better...
The graphics are going to change A LOT. I'm quoting this following post from this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=354051&page=6
i found one of the first pics of civ 4 .. this means we can expect great improvement in civ5 graphics !
schlaufuchs
Break My Heart
This exactly. If I've said it once about strategy games, I've said it a million times. Graphics take a major back seat to AI in my book.
AlpsStranger
Jump jump on the tiger!
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My lord that is heinous.
Like this:
The tiles are still pretty obvious, but by sharing a small fraction of the total terrain on a tile you could smooth it out and make the map not look like a honeycomb.
EdCase
Defender of the Faithless
Safe to say, graphics are not going to be the number one concern for the majority.
Less "cartoony" is all I ask.
Less "cartoony" is all I ask.
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