Submarine Promotions

[FyreFly_]

I haven't really seen any discussion on sub promotions as of late, so let's talk about them! As a refresher, these are the totals of each promotion tree that subs can go for:

Targeting:
+30% CS vs Naval and Land Units.
+30 RCS when attacking Units at or below 50 HP.

Hull:
+30% CS.
+40 HP.

Wolfpack:
+90% RCS when attacking.
+1 Movement.
+1 Sight.
20% chance to withdraw from Melee Combat.

Now I'd like to know, does anybody ever not use Wolfpack? It's infinitely more useful and relevant to subs, as they're not meant to be taking hits in the first place.

 

[Stalker0]

As far as I'm concerned, the only promotions for subs are the wolfpack line. I don't consider this an "issue" save for newby players first learning the ropes, but yeah for what I want subs for, its wolfpack all the way.

 

[pineappledan]

I've been saying this for years: I don't know why we even give Subs access to more than the Wolfpack line.

As a unit line, Subs unlock very late, and they have a very narrow useful niche. Rather than trying to fill out 2 promotion lines to augment that dedicated anti-ship role, I think it would be worthwhile to concentrate on polishing the Wolfpack tree.

 

[Stalker0]

I do use targeting when I finish all of the wolfpack line and still have more promotions to get. That is probably the only time. I never use the hull ones, submarines are not tanks

 

[stii]

Could try something else like

Commerce Raider
+2 Movement.
+50% gold from pillaged trade routes.

Not sure if that is even possible or good but it is something subs historically did as well as attacking ships. Gives another option without just being a bad version of wolfpack.

 

[FyreFly_]

Could try something else like

Commerce Raider
+2 Movement.
+50% gold from pillaged trade routes.

Not sure if that is even possible or good but it is something subs historically did as well as attacking ships. Gives another option without just being a bad version of wolfpack.

I like the idea of this, but I think you'd have to add something else to make it an attractive option over Wolfpack. Maybe remove withdraw bonus from Wolfpack and instead give a higher % of withdraw chance to this new promo line. I know that some people don't generally like % withdraw chance but I think subs are really the only unit that it thematically fits on.

 

[Phosphoraptor]

Right now I see subs as the naval equivalent of skirmishers, which I generally want to do 2 things:

1. Help whittle down a frontline
2. Run around the enemy's defense and harass their backline and logistics (replaced by the Scout line lategame)

How this will translate to the sea will be so:
1. Skirmisher Role: The Wolfpack line as is mostly good enough here with full out anti-ship offense, but units on this line must be well protected as they will fold if they get caught out. Due to the other role I would propose I would change the main bonus to apply only to naval units.The extra effects would be:

• More movement, to cycle in more attacks
• More RCS against units with 50HP or more, similar to the classic Accuracy Skirmisher, and open up targets for melee ships to finish off

Higher tier promotions will probably include Coup de Grace, Firing Doctrine, Parthian Tactics

2. Raider Role: This line will generally try to get in a unguarded flank of the enemy, sink wounded ships or embarked units etc, and get out if compromised. They will play more like endgame recon units. The main bonus will provide a smaller generic RCS boost.
Extra effects:

• More Sight to locate openings, targets and hazards
• Ignore ZOC for escape or snipes
• Withdraw from melee for more survivability

Higher tier promotions will probably include Logistics, Indomitable, Infiltrators

 

[balparmak]

I think we should start by nerfing Wolfpack, 75% RCS only or 60% RCS with sight/mobility bonuses seems fine to me, and even those are very out of place in comparison to other promotions. If people feel the 90% bonus is absolutely a must for submarines, that should be reflected in base values instead of relying on promotions. Phosphoraptor's suggestion of Accuracy for subs is nice & easy to implement, ideal candidate to replace Hull-Dreadnought. I'd love to see something to reflect submarines' role as commercial raiders, but the game doesn't have that much maritime commercial activity and sea improvements are relatively small in number. Maybe that could still work with city plunder, I doubt the AI would be good at using it though.

 

[Rekk]

Something to let it one shot embarked land units, since they now have enough defense to survive navy ships. Probably another leaf promotion.

And/or

A second promotion in the tree that lets the sub also damage embarked units when attacking a naval unit that is protecting it.

 

[pineappledan]

Subs can't attack cities. There is no code aside from the full heal for any bonuses on pillage for sea resources. This is another area where I think bonuses tied to promotions, rather than buildings, would come in handy. There's also no code for any bonuses from pillaging Trade Routes, which would be perfect for a sub.

Regardless, let's focus on using what we have.

I would personally like to see Wolfpack be the only tree available to Subs, and Wolfpack (referred to as WP from here) reduced to 25% at each level and lose its move/sight bonuses. But, I would want to see lots of new leaf promotions added onto it.

• For starters, I would add Navigation I & II at WP1 (+1 sight/moves at each level)
• Supply, Piracy, some sort of withdraw from melee bonus at WP2
• Logistics, Infiltrators, Another 25% attack with 10 splash damage promotion, a 100% bonus vs Embarked Land Units at WP3

 

[Stalker0]

Subs can't attack cities. There is no code aside from the full heal for any bonuses on pillage for sea resources. This is another area where I think bonuses tied to promotions, rather than buildings, would come in handy. There's also no code for any bonuses from pillaging Trade Routes, which would be perfect for a sub.

Regardless, let's focus on using what we have.

I would personally like to see Wolfpack be the only tree available to Subs, and Wolfpack (referred to as WP from here) reduced to 25% at each level and lose its move/sight bonuses. But, I would want to see lots of new leaf promotions added onto it.

• For starters, I would add Navigation I & II at WP1 (+1 sight/moves at each level)
• Supply, Piracy, some sort of withdraw from melee bonus at WP2
• Logistics, Infiltrators, Another 25% attack with 10 splash damage promotion, a 100% bonus vs Embarked Land Units at WP3

the leaf ideas here make sense to me, but overall this is a nerf to subs. Attack bonus is what the sub does, so you are nerfing it’s core niche.

In return we are giving the sub situational bonuses, which can be nice once in a while but it’s not the main niche.

you add power back at tier IV, but it takes the sub a while to get those, as they don’t have an XP legacy like ranged ships do, they have to build up from scratch.

I think a better model would be: keep wolf pack as is, and add in a few of these leafs (nav line, piracy, and then the embarked unit kill idea is neat, no logistics as it’s too good on a sub)

 

[Phosphoraptor]

• Logistics, Infiltrators, Another 25% attack with 10 splash damage promotion, a 100% bonus vs Embarked Land Units at WP3

I would remove or replace the splash since it could hit land units, which doesn't make sense

 

[pineappledan]

Something something deck guns, but sure. Just trying to think of more pure damage bonuses for subs.

I think a better model would be: keep wolf pack as is, and add in a few of these leafs (nav line, piracy, and then the embarked unit kill idea is neat...

So you would keep the +1 sight/moves on the main WP line and then add MORE moves/vision with Nav? No, I think that's too much.

... no logistics as it’s too good on a sub)

They already have access to logistics via targeting. Could lock it behind a WP IV promotion.

 

[Stalker0]

Something something deck guns, but sure. Just trying to think of more pure damage bonuses for subs.

So you would keep the +1 sight/moves on the main WP line and then add MORE moves/vision with Nav? No, I think that's too much.

They already have access to logistics via targeting. Could lock it behind a WP IV promotion.

Probably true on Nav, so may not be the best leaf to add (after all why add a promotion to give them a thing they already have, and if we have to nerf a unit just to make a promotion option.....well I'd rather just not provide the promotion option).

Logistics is available on targetting....meaning you either skipped all of the WP benefits (in which case logistics is fine powerwise), or you already went down both lines (in which case you have the most boss sub anyway, so sure that's fine). What is the push for logistics, do we think subs do too little damage and need even more?

So far the Splash and Embarked unit promotions seem the coolest ideas. They add more without just piling more power onto the subs core niche.

 

[azum4roll]

Is it possible to have a promotion that gives +X% RCS when adjacent to another sub? That could replace the secondary bonuses from Wolfpack.

Proposed Wolfpack I/II/III:
+20% RCS when attacking
+20% additional RCS when attacking while adjacent to another allied submarine class unit

Then all the removed bonuses become leaf promotions.

 

[balparmak]

Have you tried UnitPromotions_CombatModPerAdjacentUnitCombat ?

 

[azum4roll]

Have you tried UnitPromotions_CombatModPerAdjacentUnitCombat ?

Oooooh, that could work. I'm going to try that in the next version.

 

[Stalker0]

Is it possible to have a promotion that gives +X% RCS when adjacent to another sub? That could replace the secondary bonuses from Wolfpack.

Proposed Wolfpack I/II/III:
+20% RCS when attacking
+20% additional RCS when attacking while adjacent to another allied submarine class unit

Then all the removed bonuses become leaf promotions.

all this does is make subs more complicated to use and less effective for the AI. The only appeal to me is that it’s more in line with what the name “Wolfpack” generally means, but if that is literally the reason i would rather just change the name.

 

[Rekk]

Oooooh, that could work. I'm going to try that in the next version.

There's also GetAdjacentModifier, which just gives the bonus if there's any adjacent unit. Submarines are mostly going to be adjacent to other subs, so unrestricting it from just subs will probably be fine.

Given how small submarine wolf packs were, it might be a better route.

 

[azum4roll]

all this does is make subs more complicated to use and less effective for the AI. The only appeal to me is that it’s more in line with what the name “Wolfpack” generally means, but if that is literally the reason i would rather just change the name.

This kind of promotions already exists with Encirclement and Breacher, which AI picks sometimes.