Submarine Promotions

[Stalker0]

This kind of promotions already exists with Encirclement and Breacher, which AI picks sometimes.

Ok, and what does this promotion give to us that subs don't have already? Is the issue that subs are "too simple?"

 

[azum4roll]

Other stem promotions all have one effect that always works (usually +CS), and another that's situational (flanking bonus, attack bonus against cities, attack bonus against units above 50HP, etc.)

Currently both Wolfpack I and II provide two effects that always work (and are always taken), so essentially submarines start with one extra sight and move without being stated in the description.

 

[CppMaster]

Subs can't attack cities.

False. They can, but they have deal a reduced damage.

@FyreFly_
Overall, yeah. Wolfpack is far the best promotions for submarines and I only pick this is available. It's a design issue, because this is not a real choice when one option is so much better than others. Either Wolfpack promotion needs to be nerfed or other promotions need a buff, so their value is closer. Then choosing a promotion would be a more meaningful choice, which is always good. The poll speaks for itself.

 

[Stalker0]

False. They can, but they have deal a reduced damage.

@FyreFly_
Overall, yeah. Wolfpack is far the best promotions for submarines and I only pick this is available. It's a design issue, because this is not a real choice when one option is so much better than others. Either Wolfpack promotion needs to be nerfed or other promotions need a buff, so their value is closer. Then choosing a promotion would be a more meaningful choice, which is always good. The poll speaks for itself.

I would argue that the “choice” in this case is in the building of the sub in the first place. We need to respect that the sub is a very niche unit to start with, this isn’t your standard military unit that fulfills a wide array of functions, when your building a sub, you want an anti ship specialist, and Wolfpack helps the sub accomplish this task.


So I’m very much against nerfing Wolfpack in the name of choice, because all you will do is remove subs as a viable choice to begin with (I already struggle to justify subs over more ranged ships that are decent at anti ship and can attack lands and cities well)

now if someone wants to generate an entire new line of promotions to give subs a different niche that is a reasonable choice compared to Wolfpack, we could debate that…but that’s an awful lot of work and code and I just don’t see the need. What do we really need subs to do that they don’t already?

I’ve seen a few ideas that seem like solid leafs off Wolfpack, but nothing you would want to build an entire line around.

 

[CppMaster]

I don't consider them as niche, they are about 1/3 of my navy, because they are great vs other ships, especially when they can hit and run. Also they require different strategic resource. Yeah, building a sub instead of other ship is definitely a choice, but I'm talking specifically about a choice between submarine promotions. If picking the one promotion is the correct choice almost always then it's not really a choice, but a mundane clicking, so what's the point of that? Also AI may make mistakes if it chooses other promotions.
If nerfing Wolfpack would make subs useless, then it shouldn't be nerfed, because then the previous choice (which ship to build) would be less meaningful. However, why not buffing other promotions, so they could compete with Wolfpack? Or Nerf Wolfpack, but at the same time make the base sub stronger (not just in terms of CS, but also abilities), so they are not useless?

 

[Rekk]

I don't consider them as niche, they are about 1/3 of my navy, because they are great vs other ships, especially when they can hit and run. Also they require different strategic resource. Yeah, building a sub instead of other ship is definitely a choice, but I'm talking specifically about a choice between submarine promotions. If picking the one promotion is the correct choice almost always then it's not really a choice, but a mundane clicking, so what's the point of that? Also AI may make mistakes if it chooses other promotions.
If nerfing Wolfpack would make subs useless, then it shouldn't be nerfed, because then the previous choice (which ship to build) would be less meaningful. However, why not buffing other promotions, so they could compete with Wolfpack? Or Nerf Wolfpack, but at the same time make the base sub stronger (not just in terms of CS, but also abilities), so they are not useless?

Do you have any suggestions in how to buff the other promotions so that you personally would pick them instead of Wolfpack?

 

[CppMaster]

Yep. The easiest is to just increase the numbers. If it's increased enough then it makes sense to pick it instead. As with any balance changes, it would have to not be buffed to a point of being OP (like right now Wolfpack is OP in relation to other sub promotions). I don't know, though, what ideal numbers would be, but for sure higher than now if noone picks them I'd probably start with doubling the numbers. How about you?