Submarines Are Too Visible

[Gidoza]

While I obviously make a point to escort my Submarines, it occurs to me that their main perk (being invisible) is almost never applicable - because Destroyers are a main melee unit and need to be in one's fleet all the time (I never use *only* Battleships). Self-revealing when attacking forces the issue of making Subs need to kill their targets when revealing themselves or risk a quick death, and the adjacency reveal is pretty easy to deal with as well. It just seems to me that it's so easy to reveal Subs that their bonus is completely pointless. So I wanted to suggest some alternative possibilities.

1. Remove Destroyer/Missile Cruiser/Sub reveal entirely.

Subs would only be revealed by attacking or by adjacency and nothing else. I'm honestly not sure why more is needed, but I'll go on.

2. A unique unit that reveals Subs, but isn't a Destroyer.

The problem with the current fleet setup I'd that sneaking up on anything with a Submarines is impossible seeing as any normal fleet will always see it. Thus some kind of support ship that's built for this purpose specifically broadens the use of Subs a little. The drawback is that it would complicate fleet management somewhat.

3. Make Sub detection on Destroyers a pickable promotion.

Rather than all Destroyers seeing Subs all the time, a Destroyer of Level 4 and higher could *choose* a promotion to see them. Because this is drawing strength away from the Destroyer by not picking other promotions, one wouldn't want this promotion on every ship. The AI could assign every third or fourth vessel to have this promotion or something.


I dunno...it just doesn't seem to me that Subs add or change much and I don't really see the point of using them unless they're brutally hard to find, which they never are.

 

[Rekk]

I like option 3 the best, but it could probably be a lower tier leaf promotion.

 

[Stalker0]

I think sub invisibility is more useful for patrol and pillaging (both tiles and trade routes). It’s great to be able to get within 2 of cities or coastal defenses and be immune to attacks.

In fleet battles, I agree the invis isn’t that useful but I don’t mind that. I do think subs need love but I don’t think this is the way to do it.

Also while the promotion idea is very interesting, I think it would be too abusable by humans. The AI may not build the promotion at all, and if they do the human can target the key ship and then it’s a sub frenzy. Or they use it too much, and you just don’t build subs and now have a marked advantage over the other fleet.

 

[Rekk]

They could have had a niche at being embarked troop killers if that hadn't been reverted.

 

[Delvemor]

That's one of the few complaints I have while playing VP. The submarines are indeed much less potent than they used to, especially with the shorter range. Another alternative to those already suggested could be a reduction of the detection range, if it's possible code-wise. This way a submarine would be able to spot enemy destroyers and such without being detected unless it approaches too close. Thus you could still potentially mess with their trade routes and fishing boats as long as you're careful about their detection. A promotion extending detection range could also be added.

 

[azum4roll]

A fixed sub detection range that's unrelated to the sight range would be nice to have. We can even make it different for Destroyers and Missile Cruisers.

 

[pineappledan]

I would make sub detection a tier 1 leaf promotion for naval melee, unlocked at Radio (1 tech earlier than destroyer or subs). ie. Destroyers should be able to select it at lvl 3, after having taken either Dreadnought I or Boarding Party I

You still have to sink XP to give them the ability to see, but I don't think locking it all the way back at lvl 5 is fair. Then you're sinking 100+ XP into it.

 

[Gazebo]

I've actually been tinkering with this, I'm going to put the anti-sub stuff behind naval sentry as a leaf-leaf promotion set. Also going to tech gate it behind sub tech. Anti-sub destroyers/missile cruisers will require more investment.

G

 

[pineappledan]

I'm going to put the anti-sub stuff behind naval sentry as a leaf-leaf promotion set

If I recall, Sentry is gated behind Dreadnought I or Boarding Party II, so in addition to Sentry, that means minimum lvl 4 or 5, correct?

Seems quite late. IMO, the sub detection should be available by lvl 3. It still will delay your ships' level progression, but you can get it with just building XP then.

 

[Stalker0]

I've actually been tinkering with this, I'm going to put the anti-sub stuff behind naval sentry as a leaf-leaf promotion set. Also going to tech gate it behind sub tech. Anti-sub destroyers/missile cruisers will require more investment.

G

G are you referring to just the anti sub combat bonuses, or the detection power as well?

Also did you mean navigation instead of sentry? Sentry is a ranged ship promotion

 

[Gazebo]

G are you referring to just the anti sub combat bonuses, or the detection power as well?

Also did you mean navigation instead of sentry? Sentry is a ranged ship promotion

Both. And yes Navigator, sorry, it's NAVAL_SENTRY in the XML.

G

 

[pineappledan]

Could call the promotion Hunter Killer, and make it available as a leaf promotion for Subs as well.

 

[Stalker0]

If I recall, Sentry is gated behind Dreadnought I or Boarding Party II, so in addition to Sentry, that means minimum lvl 4 or 5, correct?

Seems quite late. IMO, the sub detection should be available by lvl 3. It still will delay your ships' level progression, but you can get it with just building XP then.

it would work: BP I -> Navigator I -> Hunter Killer, so it would be tier iii by my understanding

 

[pineappledan]

So it would only be available via boarding party line?

 

[azum4roll]

Does the AI even have memory to remember they've spotted a submarine the turn before and know to pursue it?

 

[Tekamthi]

Some good ideas discussed here.. of the bunch I like the idea of promos that add detection range, but not necessarily the full visibility range

alternatively, can subs be better at getting away without becoming op in combat? Iirc, subs can get a withdrawal from melee promo.. or some units can anyway.. if the mechanism were tweaked to allow sub to move two or three tiles on withdrawal, it might regain its invisibility, depending on sight range of the attacking unit