[submod] Cross' Overhaul: Wu, Bulgaria, Fatimids, Macedon, Iroquois, Armenia, Parthia, Minoans, Ghurids, Timurids, Khazars, Xia, Shu, Nigeria, Zulu

[Tigranes]

Historical victory for Bulgaria at Marathon speed and Monarch difficulty

Looks cool! It was always Bulgarian ambition to move their capital to Tsargrad , you should have done that!

Spoiler Spanish in Anatolia :

Did Spain get a crusade and landed it in Trapezund, judging from your map?

 

[Alamart]

Looks cool! It was always Bulgarian ambition to move their capital to Tsargrad , you should have done that!

Spoiler Spanish in Anatolia :

Did Spain get a crusade and landed it in Trapezund, judging from your map?

Yes, they conquered Trebizond and the entire Caucasus, but then the Ottomans swept them away

 

[Crossphazer]

Ottomans were the owners oh Athens and Indy's the owner of Rhegium in Magna Graecia. Yes Southern Italy.

I wonder what would you chose as trigger event (I suggest first to discover Doctrine, very fitting)? And also the "default" holy city for Shia? I suggest Parthian capital, which is reasonably close to real life Qom. The city is the largest center for Shi'a scholarship in the world, and is a significant destination of pilgrimage, with around twenty million pilgrims visiting the city every year, the majority being Iranians but also other Shi'a Muslims from all around the world. Misr can be the first Shia on the start civ but should also flip entire North Africa, except for Morocco.

Wikipedia link I have provided does list Kilwa as Shia, but other sources suggest they were Sunni. So,

Yes, Doctrine. The holy city of Shia will end up being Tunis since the Fatimids, which I've pushed back in time to 909AD in the Tunis area, will start with Doctrine, causing them to found it the majority of the time. It can be refined at a later date.

Well, if southern Italy is indy and was formerly Greek, it makes sense that it flipped the city. If Athens was Ottoman, then it would not auto-flip to Greeks when you liberated the civ in Crete. So ultimately, the outcome makes sense.

Also, I noted the missing text keys from your 1920 Armenia screenshot.

Regarding Rome founding Islam, it had an incentive to research Theology. I changed it to a malus, so it will no longer prioritize Theology. That should fix the issue of Rome discovering Islam very early.

 

[Crossphazer]

New patch:
Shia religion added!
Notable fully or partially Shia civs:
Persia (on respawn), Iran, Swahili (although the leader favours Sunni, so the civ may shift from Shia to Sunni during the game), Misr (Fatimids), Assyria (Hamdanid respawn), Tunisia (Carthage respawn)

2 Sunni-requiring wonders were shifted to Shia. There is a notable lack of Shia wonders. I will consult the database of existing assets on the forum.
Some wonders which required both a Sunni state religion and Sunni city religion, have had the requirement lessened to only the city religion, not the state religion.

Full notes:

• Shia founded by Doctrine tech.
• Misr (as Fatimids) starts in 909 in Tunisia.
• New leader for Misr: Al Mu'izz, Shia Fatimid leader
• New leader for Assyria: Nasir Al Dawla (Shia leader)
• Persian respawn leader prefers Shia
• Swahili start Shia with missionary
• Timurid (Turkish respawn) get buff to respawn units.
• Crusades more likely.
• Magyar barbarian spawns nerfed slightly (since they get a city with 4 horse archers that spawns)
• Rome starts with Hegemony, so it gets stability from conquests.
• Mongol sack of Baghdad as a conquest.
• Seljuk invasion of Persia delayed a few decades (to align with history).
• Islam renamed to Sunni in many places.
• Disincentivise Rome to research Theology (and thus discover Islam).
• Naffatun production cost slightly increased.

 

[Alamart]

Is it possible to exclude the spawning of the Ottomans and their further respawning in the game if the Seljuks failed to invade Anatolia and conquer at least one city there? It’s just that otherwise it turns out wildly illogical that while playing for the Eastern Romans I defended Anatolia (that is, the migration of the Turks to Anatolia did not happen). But then the Ottomans spawn anyway and you have to fight with them.

 

[Alamart]

You can also add the implementation of the fourth crusade if a schism occurred, which will make the gameplay for Eastern Rome more difficult.

 

[Alamart]

You can also respawn the Hittite civilization as the Muslim Rum Sultanate, which existed in Anatolia for several centuries, and spawn the Ottomans later, since the peak of their expansion in Anatolia and Balkans occurred in the 14th-15th centuries. And the Ottoman beylik became a serious power in Anatolia no earlier than the mid-14th century.

 

[Tigranes]

Is it possible to exclude the spawning of the Ottomans and their further respawning in the game if the Seljuks failed to invade Anatolia and conquer at least one city there? It’s just that otherwise it turns out wildly illogical that while playing for the Eastern Romans I defended Anatolia (that is, the migration of the Turks to Anatolia did not happen). But then the Ottomans spawn anyway and you have to fight with them.

I really believe Leoreth did implement this exact idea in the base mod. Stable Byzantines plus no cities captured by Seljuks results in no Ottomans. I may be wrong or Cross might have done his thing.

 

[Crossphazer]

Is it possible to exclude the spawning of the Ottomans and their further respawning in the game if the Seljuks failed to invade Anatolia and conquer at least one city there? It’s just that otherwise it turns out wildly illogical that while playing for the Eastern Romans I defended Anatolia (that is, the migration of the Turks to Anatolia did not happen). But then the Ottomans spawn anyway and you have to fight with them.

I really believe Leoreth did implement this exact idea in the base mod. Stable Byzantines plus no cities captured by Seljuks results in no Ottomans. I may be wrong or Cross might have done his thing.

Currently the conditional spawn of Ottomans depends on Turks (Seljuk) owning or having owned a city in the following regions: Anatolia, Caucasus, Levant, Mesopotamia. This is how it is in vanilla DoC as well.

I could make the condition stricter but it has the potential for knock-on effects so I will need to consider it carefully.

You can also add the implementation of the fourth crusade if a schism occurred, which will make the gameplay for Eastern Rome more difficult.

That has the possibility to happen via the Crusades event, where an Orthodox city is targeted.

You can also respawn the Hittite civilization as the Muslim Rum Sultanate, which existed in Anatolia for several centuries, and spawn the Ottomans later, since the peak of their expansion in Anatolia and Balkans occurred in the 14th-15th centuries. And the Ottoman beylik became a serious power in Anatolia no earlier than the mid-14th century.

The Ottomans are a stand-in for all the Turks of Anatolia. There isn't really the time or space to split the Anatolian Turks into sub-civs.

 

[Tigranes]

Yes, Doctrine. The holy city of Shia will end up being Tunis since the Fatimids, which I've pushed back in time to 909AD in the Tunis area, will start with Doctrine, causing them to found it the majority of the time. It can be refined at a later date.

I assume Shia follows the same core and periphery rules the other religions must follow. I am guessing Iran is the core?

I run few games to assess the Shia situation and here are my 2 dinars:

From a political viewpoint the history of the Shia was in 3 stages. The first part was the emergence of the Shia, which starts after Muhammad's death in 632 and lasts until Battle of Karbala in 680. This part coincides with the Imamah of Ali, Hasan ibn Ali and Hussain. The second part is the differentiation and distinction of the Shia as a separate sect within the Muslim community, and the opposition of the Sunni caliphs. This part starts after the Battle of Karbala and lasts until the formation of the Shia states about 900. During this section Shi'ism divided into several branches. The third section is the period of Shia states. The first Shia state was the Idrisid dynasty (780–974) in Maghreb. Next was the Alavid dynasty (864–928) established in Mazandaran (Tabaristan), north of Iran. These dynasties were local, but they were followed by two great and powerful dynasties: Fatimids and Buyids. As a result, the period from the mid-10th to the mid-11th century is often known as the "Shi'a Century" of Islam. In Yemen, Imams of various dynasties usually of the Zaidi sect established a theocratic political structure that survived from 897 until 1962. Iran, formerly of Sunni majority region underwent a process of forced conversion to Shia Islam under the Saffavids between the 16th and 18th century.

I suggest to get a little creative with founding of Shia Islam: instead of Doctrine tech we can found it in the first city captured by Muslim civilization in the modern Iran region. It will insure holy city is closer to the last Shia champion -- Iran, and close to Iraq, the sight of the real Shia shrine. Alternatively in can be founded the first time Sunni civ changes it's capital.

Misr suppose to represent all 3 great Egyptian civs: Shia Fatimids, and Sunni Ayyubids and Mamluks. Initially they start with 2 Shia Imams. I suggest at least 5. Otherwise I don't see much Shia in Egypt later on. Currently Tunis is conquest territory and Algeria is foreign. It would make sense to make Algeria, Tunis and Libya historical. Initial Misr could really flip everything between Morocco and Egypt, including East Libya and Sicily. Sometimes there is a city in Sicily and sometimes none, so it is not too much. Also Yemeni cities needs to get Shia, together with Omani cities and later on some south Indian cities: if Dravidians convert to Shia they can be called Bahmanis.

 

[Maggy_domain]

2 Sunni-requiring wonders were shifted to Shia. There is a notable lack of Shia wonders. I will consult the database of existing assets on the forum.
Some wonders which required both a Sunni state religion and Sunni city religion, have had the requirement lessened to only the city religion, not the state religion

Maybe Sword of Islam has something, but I was wondering a Fatimid-Shia wonder could be the Al Hakim Mosque? This would also provide the new Misri civ with a thematic wonder. Not sure about effects, but I did a run with them and found that UHV2 very reliant on the Great Lighthouse, which is a bit a-historical. Maybe its wonder could provide some trade bonus akin to Image of the World?

 

[Tigranes]

Currently the conditional spawn of Ottomans depends on Turks (Seljuk) owning or having owned a city in the following regions: Anatolia, Caucasus, Levant, Mesopotamia. This is how it is in vanilla DoC as well.

I could make the condition stricter but it has the potential for knock-on effects so I will need to consider it carefully.

If you just exclude Mesopotamia and Levant it may be both historical and not too restive game wise

 

[Maggy_domain]

Maybe Sword of Islam has something, but I was wondering a Fatimid-Shia wonder could be the Al Hakim Mosque? This would also provide the new Misri civ with a thematic wonder. Not sure about effects, but I did a run with them and found that UHV2 very reliant on the Great Lighthouse, which is a bit a-historical. Maybe its wonder could provide some trade bonus akin to Image of the World?

Another Misri related comment: the civ starts with Fanaticism, like the Arabs. I find that running Fanaticism is both thematic and useful, given the +10 gold limit to shrines. At the same time it increases the chance of non state religions disappear, which in turn is a-historical, given the tolerance to the non-shia non-muslim subjects, and a bit sad to lose all that pops diversity.

 

[Crossphazer]

Another Misri related comment: the civ starts with Fanaticism, like the Arabs. I find that running Fanaticism is both thematic and useful, given the +10 gold limit to shrines. At the same time it increases the chance of non state religions disappear, which in turn is a-historical, given the tolerance to the non-shia non-muslim subjects, and a bit sad to lose all that pops diversity.

Yes, I have decided against Fanaticism for the Fatimids, for both reasons of history and because the unhappiness malus is huge when conquering Egypt at least initially.

Maybe Sword of Islam has something, but I was wondering a Fatimid-Shia wonder could be the Al Hakim Mosque? This would also provide the new Misri civ with a thematic wonder. Not sure about effects, but I did a run with them and found that UHV2 very reliant on the Great Lighthouse, which is a bit a-historical. Maybe its wonder could provide some trade bonus akin to Image of the World?

Good idea, I'll look into it.

I assume Shia follows the same core and periphery rules the other religions must follow. I assume Iran is the core?

I run few games to assess the Shia situation and here are my 2 dinars:

From a political viewpoint the history of the Shia was in 3 stages. The first part was the emergence of the Shia, which starts after Muhammad's death in 632 and lasts until Battle of Karbala in 680. This part coincides with the Imamah of Ali, Hasan ibn Ali and Hussain. The second part is the differentiation and distinction of the Shia as a separate sect within the Muslim community, and the opposition of the Sunni caliphs. This part starts after the Battle of Karbala and lasts until the formation of the Shia states about 900. During this section Shi'ism divided into several branches. The third section is the period of Shia states. The first Shia state was the Idrisid dynasty (780–974) in Maghreb. Next was the Alavid dynasty (864–928) established in Mazandaran (Tabaristan), north of Iran. These dynasties were local, but they were followed by two great and powerful dynasties: Fatimids and Buyids. As a result, the period from the mid-10th to the mid-11th century is often known as the "Shi'a Century" of Islam. In Yemen, Imams of various dynasties usually of the Zaidi sect established a theocratic political structure that survived from 897 until 1962. Iran, formerly of Sunni majority region underwent a process of forced conversion to Shia Islam under the Saffavids between the 16th and 18th century.

I suggest to get a little creative with founding of Shia Islam: instead of Doctrine tech we can found it in the first city captured by Muslim civilization in the modern Iran region. It will insure holy city is closer to the last Shia champion -- Iran, and close to Iraq, the sight of the real Shia shrine. Alternatively in can be founded the first time Sunni civ changes it's capital.

Misr suppose to represent all 3 great Egyptian civs: Shia Fatimids, and Sunni Ayyubids and Mamluks. Initially they start with 2 Shia Imams. I suggest at least 5. Otherwise I don't see much Shia in Egypt later on. Currently Tunis is conquest territory and Algeria is foreign. It would make sense to make Algeria, Tunis and Libya historical. Initial Misr could really flip everything between Morocco and Egypt, including East Libya and Sicily. Sometimes there is a city in Sicily and sometimes none, so it is not too much. Also Yemeni cities needs to get Shia, together with Omani cities and later on some south Indian cities: if Dravidians convert to Shia they can be called Bahmanis.

>I assume Shia follows the same core and periphery rules the other religions must follow. I assume Iran is the core?

{
    iCore :         [rArabia, rMesopotamia, rPersia],
    iHistorical :     [rMaghreb, rLevant, rEgypt, rKhorasan, rTransoxiana, rCaucasus, rRajputana],
    iPeriphery :     [rNubia, rAnatolia, rBalkans, rHindustan, rBengal, rCentralAsianSteppe, rSindh, rPunjab, rHinduKush],
    iMinority :     [rUrals, rSiberia, rTarimBasin, rMongolia, rIberia, rDeccan, rPonticSteppe, rCrimea, rSwahiliCoast, rHornOfAfrica, rSahara, rSahel, rIndonesia],
},

>Currently Tunis is conquest territory and Algeria is foreign. It would make sense to make Algeria, Tunis and Libya historical
No, I want these lands as conquest zones because the civ should not get a stability benefit from owning them, because they became more marginal and were even lost, making Egypt the natural core.
I might extend the conquest zone into Algeria but I don't remember by heart where I ended it, so I'll have to review it.

 

[Tigranes]

New patch:
Shia religion added!
Notable fully or partially Shia civs:
Persia (on respawn), Iran, Swahili (although the leader favours Sunni, so the civ may shift from Shia to Sunni during the game), Misr (Fatimids), Assyria (Hamdanid respawn), Tunisia (Carthage respawn)

Very excited about Shia, keep running 3000 BC game until 1500 AD to see natural spread and resulting rivalries.

Can I ask you which civ does Persian respawn represents? Buyids or various Iranian Intermezzo dynasties? May I suggest to replace Persian respawn with our new Parthian civ respawn instead, making them Shia and calling them Buyids. The reason being that both initial Parthia and Buyids originated roughly in the same region.

 

[Crossphazer]

Very excited about Shia, keep running 3000 BC game until 1500 AD to see natural spread and resulting rivalries.

Can I ask you which civ does Persian respawn represents? Buyids or various Iranian Intermezzo dynasties? May I suggest to replace Persian respawn with our new Parthian civ respawn instead, making them Shia and calling them Buyids. The reason being that both initial Parthia and Buyids originated roughly in the same region.

Persia respawn is a catch all. Parthian respawn has possibilities but at the moment I'd like to take some time to validate the balance and state of the game now that I introduced Shia.

 

[Landyn Linhares]

tbh i feel like the parthian spawn is too early, whenever they spawn the persians are still alive and then they both get swept up by the macedonians

 

[Crossphazer]

tbh i feel like the parthian spawn is too early, whenever they spawn the persians are still alive and then they both get swept up by the macedonians

They get swept up even despite the Parthia spawn protection (no war declaration)? What speed are you playing on? In my Epic speed autoplay tests I don't believe I have ever seen Parthia lose cities to the Macedonians.

 

[Alamart]

Will Misri spawn occur on my territory if I live beyond Carthage until the 10th century?

 

[Tigranes]

2 Sunni-requiring wonders were shifted to Shia. There is a notable lack of Shia wonders. I will consult the database of existing assets on the forum.
Some wonders which required both a Sunni state religion and Sunni city religion, have had the requirement lessened to only the city religion, not the state religion.

Some Wonder can be Shia or Sunni. Dome of the Rock comes to mind, could we please change it? Also Al-Azhar University was founded by Shia Fatimids but functioning as a Sunni institution currently, if you ever implement it. Imam Reza Mosque, on the other hand, can be Shia only Wonder.