Succesion LK7 - Babylon - 20000 pt challenge

Lee the diplomat has been found. Luxuries reduced by 10% to get us a positive cash flow. We begin getting embassies.

960 AD - We have nothing to hide, so I begin trading world maps to the world. We could really use the cash! Total net is $89 plus $6/turn. Plus some updated map information from other civs. Enough money for another embassy. Iroqouis building Sun Tzu in 23 turns.

990 AD - Switch Babylon to Leo's workshop. I go for education next, as there is a high risk of wasting shields trying for the workshop. If Iroqoius have invention by then ... Several civs have the needed pre-reqs for invention. Running at deficit, so I trade another round of world maps. I don't get a lot this time :( Still need another 3 embassies. Rush the courthouse in Shuruppak.

1000 AD - Shurppuk begins the forbidden palace. Due in 100 turns. Once we take the Zulu's out, this will help our production a lot.

1010 AD - The Iroqois starting to get an attitude, demanding a tech. Relationships are getting worse.

1020 AD - The two continents have mostly found each other. I don't see a reason to keep holding back communications. Net gain is just $83, as most of them have found each other.
Japan has Chivalry :(

1030 AD - Foolish Aztecs. Atzcapotzalco quits, and joins our empire. :lol

1080 AD - Sun Tzu is finished in Ur. The Iroqoius are building the workshop.

1090 AD - The people love me, and the palace is taller.

1130 AD - I trade a tech. Give Greece education for Chivarly + $50. I hate to give any tech away, but we need Knights.

Summarry - I really don't think we will get the workshop. However, we have the culture wonder of Bach's Cathedral to switch to.
 
1160ad - Sold spices to the Aztecs for 3gold/turn, wmap and 7gold.
1170ad - The Americans demanded Chivalry and declared war when denied.
1180ad - Zzzz
1190ad - Salamanca built Leo's Shop.
1200ad - Told the Zulus to get the hell out of our borders.
1210ad - JS Bach's Cathedral finished in Babylon.
1220ad - Zzzz
1230ad - Discovered Gunpowder. I chose the path to Economics. Smith's Company will increase our science output. We have one source of saltpeter near Unmata.
1240ad to 1265ad - Zzzz
1270ad - Connected Saltpeter source. Upgraded some spearman in the Zulu borders.
1275ad - Positioning troops to engage in a war.
1280ad - The Zulu ask me to remove my troops and I ask for Right of Passage. They accepted, and I positioned all troops in the right spots. Then I went to renegotiate our Peace Treaty with the Zulus. War was declared because they didn't give what was demanded. Ngome was captured (1 swordsman lost, 1 catapult in the city). Ulundi was captured (no loses, 1 catapult in the city). An unfortified Impi (in a desert) killed two of our knights(HOW???) :mad:.
1285ad - Resistance ended in both captured cities. Zulu longbowman killed bowmen. Ulundi catapult damaged the strongest Impi alive. Longbowman and the most powerful Impi on earth were killed by two swordsmen (grief :D). Temples rushed in captured cities. Impi and archer Zulu group killed.
1290ad - Palace was improved. A musketman was killed by a longbowman.
1295ad - The dumb Zulu piled up next to our offensive force. 3 archers, 1 longbowman and 1 impi were killed. No fatal casualties to our side.
1300ad - Knights killed 2 impi in Zimbabwe. I decided to sell Chivalry around the globe because Greece and Japan already had it. We got:
Iroquois - 13/turn 60gold wmap
Indians - 16/turn 3gold wmap
France - 8/turn 4gold
Aztecs - 7/turn 22gold wmap
England - 3/turn 20gold wmap
Persia - 1/turn 6gold wmap
Total: 48/turn+115gold.

Summary
- We have a wealthy economy.
- Economics will be researched in 5 turns thanks to the other nations.
- You can and should build more banks. Remember that 5 are needed for Wall Street.
- Our troops are in position to take Zimbabwe. We don't have the strongest military force, but neither does the Zulus.
- All Rights of Passage deals we had were cancelled. The foreign attitude towards us is not the best.
- Spice deal with the Aztecs will end next turn. Check it out.

Take a look at Zimbabwe.
 

Attachments

  • temp.jpg
    temp.jpg
    72.9 KB · Views: 480
Up next - Sirian Your challenge, end the Zulu war. I just hope we aren't forced to take Intombe. That long of a war will kill us.

I agree with Pggar - the civ attitudes toward us suck. We need to improve these

5 turns to economics and the trading company - Building one more knight with Babylon is a hard decision - If we start a bank, then switch we could build up 100+ shields toward it. Once we get economics, we need positive cash flow. I want to upgrade to all musketmen.

The great news - We have 176 turns left to 20000. Smith's trading company will make that less. We just have to make sure we survive that long.
 
On my inherited turn, I looked the situation over, determined that we had plenty of military for the task at hand, and switched every city in the empire over to infrastructure, mostly banks, some universities, a couple harbors or cathedrals. Then I went to check on how much luxury spending we actually needed, found that we needed none. Only had to make one entertain in one city, plus starve the newly captured Zulu cities (would have done that anyway), so luxuries were dropped to zero. This allowed me to speed research to 4 turns for Economics, and get a positive cash flow. Luxuries make happy people and that helps the score, but we don't care about the score here, do we? So... zero luxury it is.

The city on wealth (which offers a woefully useless one gold per eight shields early, and one for four after banking?) was switched to a harbor. I used to like Wealth (Capitalization) in Civ2, but they have dumbed it down too far in Civ3. I see it as a waste. Better to run deficits sometimes, and slow research if the treasury threatens to go broke, I believe. That requires keeping an eye on the science and luxury rates, but that's not a problem for me. Since it would cost 4 gold per shield to rushbuild, Wealth offers a 1/32nd to 1/16th cash value for each shield, that's pretty ugly.

Pggar's Right of Passage betrayal has pissed everyone off. No one will sign a RoP with us anymore without us offering a fortune. Was a sneak attack really worth that much? Well, I'll have to deal with it. First time I've ever been in this situation, as I do not do RoP betrayals in my own games. The penalties for such are unrealistically mild -- even more so than I thought, as I would soon discover. The AI's ought not to trust the player ever again after such a move. Like the ability to endless whip size 1 cities, the RoP betrayal needs some reworking in a future patch. I don't think it should be taken off the table, but it ought not to be a "no brainer" in terms of the cost-benefit ratio like it is now.

Pggar has twice now left me with a grandly strong military in a warmongering position. This time the war was actually ongoing, as he had taken two cities and moved into position to get the enemy capital. All I had to do to win that battle on the next turn was... to attack.

1305: One enemy longbow killed a Babylon unit. I didn't even get to see what took place, so I went in to preferences and turned on Animate Battles. Zimbabwe razed to the ground. (City flips are somewhat based on how much enemy culture there was before capture, so a palace capture this late in the game is pretty much auto-raze for me. Because of the Palace culture, and old temples/libraries, capitals are always in the 1000s of culture by now, way too much revolt risk for my taste). We picked up about seven or eight slave workers and some catapults. Rest of military position consolidated. We had plenty enough military to get this job done, if I did two things: not scatter the forces trying to take too much at once, and not have to leave behind a large chunk of units on garrison. Thus another reason Zimbabwe had to be destroyed.

1310: wounded units all over the place fortified so they could heal up. Muskets fortified on key roads to prevent effective counterattack on the flanks while I moved the bulk of our units into position to attack Hlobane -- the next largest Zulu city, which would also be razed.

1315: Hlobane razed. Moved a force of four knights into position to attack Mpondo, moved the Stack of everything else toward the city southwest of former Zimbabwe.

1320: Economics researched, Babylon switched from bank to Smith's. Mpondo captured. Stack moves next to other city. Renewed the spice deal with Aztecs at increased cost to them.

1325: Resistance in Mpondo ended. Other city captured. Moved half a dozen knights into position to attack final city, backed by a few slower units moving up behind them in case of minor chance of knights failing. The English were wiped out.

1330: Isandlwhana captured. Zulus pushed off our continent for good as their last major city falls. Zulu capital moved to town on French continent, ensuring that minor Zulu colonies on isle to northeast will be taken in the Peace negotiation soon to come.

1335-45: Some banks completed, Ur switched to Palace in preparation to build Smith's. Astronomy researched, Babylon switched to Copernicus (worth more culture and will be done sooner), Ur switched to Smith's, Kish switched to Palace in preparation for building Magellan. Two Caravels queued up at Ninevah just in case we do have to land troops on the Zulu island. Settlers built to fill in gaps left by razings. Zulu cities starved down to size 1, then regrown. (Reducing foreign nationals, in combination with strong garrisons, ensures little to no loss of captured cities in revolt).

1350: Zulus finally talk, give us their colonies and all their maps and gold for peace. Neither colony has a harbor, so the units we get for free are only spearmen. I move our first ship in that direction, intending to reinforce some stronger troops to the island. Ten rounds of zero luxury and max efficiency on adjusting the science rate each turn, so we get discoveries every four turns but minimal waste on the last turn, have left us with nearly 1000 gold in the treasury. I ran through and upgraded a bucketload of spearmen to musket. Still a lot of upgrading left to be done, but more can wait, as it's better to stay on top of pulling out to the biggest tech lead possible. Decided to talk to the Americans, who are now willing to pay us 20 gold for peace. Babylon is now at peace.

1355: resumed building knights at one per four turns north of Babylon, muskets at one per four or five turns in a couple of cities. Settled some of the gaps, need one more settler, and the Aztecs are rushing a galley in that direction, surely hoping to grab a piece of land.

1360: Navigation. Worldwide trade now possible for us. Time for the planet to dine on fine Babylonian spices. Traded spices to Iroquois for Furs and a bucket of cash per turn (them paying, they have a HUGE empire). Sold spices to every western nation who could afford them, GAVE them to the Greeks and Persians, who were broke, for 20 turns, to improve relations. However, next time, if they can't pay up, no more free lunch. Traded Iron to the French for Incense and some gold per turn. Musket reinforcements carried to Sirian's Isle. Some temples rushed in captured Zulu cities and new settlements. Traded Music Theory and some cash to somebody (forget who) for Printing Press, started researching Democracy. Kish switched to Magellan's. Sent a musket onboard a ship eastward into the ocean, intending to sail clockwise around Germany, all the way south to grab that goody hut before borders expand and swallow it up.

1365-75: Our workers had long ago finished all worthwhile improvements in the heart of our land. I moved about a dozen of them north to the tundra, irrigated a temporary path through Uruk to get water to that lone grassland for Igloo, then rebuilt one destroyed mine. Planted forests all around Igloo, and now I started chopping some of them down for the shields, to hurry along that much needed harbor. When that was done, replanted the forests a second time (for keeps), so don't bother lumberjacking up there, it's already been done. I also planted a few forests around Ur to speed construction of the wonder.

1380: Democracy. Held off on the revolt, even though it would be only one turn of anarchy, as I wanted to complete research into Free Artisistry, and start construction on Shakespeare's on my turn. The theater, at 8 culture per turn, is a must-get to hurry along our victory. Whether we will also be able to grab Newton and its 6 per turn, in Babylon, remains to be seen. If not, we can get Suffrage, though, so there should be at least two more wonders in a row built after my turn.

1385: On the way to the goody hut, spotted shallow waters out in the middle of nowhere, gave on the hut and went to have a look at these uncharted islands. Started construction of Wall Street in Akkad.

1390: Copernicus built in Babylon. Spotted iron and horses on small islands, decided to rush a settler from Igloo to grab at least one of these sites. We could trade the Iron to somebody for a luxury, maybe, although the island with the horses looks more attractive as a colony site. Still, the island with the Iron has only two squares, and if we build a city on one and fortify a unit on the other, the island would be impregnable to capture until marines come along -- although a harbor would remain vulnerable to naval bombardment. Which island to grab will be left up to the next player.

1400: Free Artistry. Traded Music Theory and 20 gold per turn to somebody for Chemistry. Sold Spices to the French for a modest fee. Loaded a Settlement Kit onto our Caravel near Uruk (settler, worker, military), so that one of those islands with resources could be grabbed. Set research to Physics for four turns at a minor deficit. Set Shurrupak to food deficit to speed Forbidden Palace by three turns. Set Babylon to food deficit to speed Shakespeare by a turn. Babylon can be switched back to break-even food after seven more turns, so keep an eye on it.

I urge micromanagement of science bar each turn to keep each breakthrough at 4 turns per with minimal wasted, at least through end of middle ages. It's going to take longer in the next era per breakthrough, but that can wait until the next era. Get to Theory of Gravity soon, and if people start to build Newton's before Babylon finishes the Theater, swap Akkad to Newton's to prevent anybody else from getting it, and let Babylon build Wall Street or Suffrage next. There's absolutely no reason we should let anybody else ever build another Great Wonder. Get Steam Power before Military Tradition, as we've already won our war and have nothing useful to gain by more aggression unless it turns out that there's no coal anywhere on our continent. In fact, let the AI's research Cavalry for us, and trade them gold or obsolete techs for it later, as we press on toward Theory of Evolution and Hoover Dam. I also see no need to upgrade every last troop we have unless somebody declares war on us and really comes after us, bringing fleetfuls of troops to our shores. Defending over land vs the AI is a task, but if they have to cross water to get to you, it's MUCH easier to beat them back. Save our cash, and keep the science going. If we really NEED to upgrade units because we are being attacked, we can run 10% science or even zero with a scientist specialist, for a few turns, to raise a tub of cash in a hurry.

In 1460, renegotiate all our spice deals with the west, except perhaps with the Iroquois -- let them pay us at that rate as long as they are willing to continue doing so. On my turn, I finished the war, secured our continent, built all kinds of banks and other improvements, researched five techs and acquired two more, built a wonder and secured three more, improved relations with everyone in the world, and discovered what is likely the last of the unknown islands, to our east.

I urge completion of Magellan's before the change to Democracy, but don't wait much longer after that. We're going to need the increased worker efficiency to speed rail building. Once the FP is built, a whole lot of cities will need to be re-examined, and our economy will take off like a rocket.

Best Wishes.


- Sirian
 
Up next - cdub

I definitely got a good crew for this one :)
1400AD after just one week!

The attitudes of the AI seem better.

My only issue - positive cash flow. Wall street is on the way, and I want to take advantage of the interest.

:goodjob: to the last 2 leaders, I am glad to FINALLY see Zululand off our continent.

We can't stop that Aztec city, but it will probably flip to us shortly.


Our science lead is HUGH! Not a single civ could give us a tech.
 
What Aztec city? :)

I didn't leave the AI any "legal" settlement sites, by its evaluation routine. Those Aztec units have been there a while, will be there forever, and we might as well leave them there, too. They're harmless.

Wall Street is a long way off. ONE round of all cash could catch us up by then. Smith and Forbidden Palace are slated to hit before Wall Street, we'll get probably 300 more income per turn just from those two improvements, counting bonus from libraries etc.

Aren't domination and conquest disabled? I seem to remember mention of that. At this point, we could probably fortify everything and click next turn 100 times. :) I don't recommend it, but at least get to Steam and Sanitation asap, then worry about the cashflow.

My 2 cents.


- Sirian
 
Originally posted by Sirian
What Aztec city? :)

I didn't leave the AI any "legal" settlement sites, by its evaluation routine.

- Sirian

Can you give me insight into what is a computer "legal" settlement? Could prove of great use at some point.
 
Holy Jeez!!! I spent 30 minutes writing my about my reign and the board tells me too many images and deletes the whole thing :mad: ! Oh well here is a brief summary (the first one was a lot better, I apologize)-

1415 AD- Magellan's Voyage is complete in Kish.

1420 AD- Became a Democracy

1425 AD- Physic's is discovered, Theory Of Gravity to be researched.

1430 AD- Colony Cdub founded on Iron Island.

1445 AD- Theory Of Gravity discovered, Magnetism is to be researched.

1450 AD- French settle Bayonne on Horse Island, we had a settler on the way there, contemplated an invasion, but did not want war weariness.

1455 AD- Smith's Trading Company completed in Ur. Cash flow now +10 turn.

1460 AD- Forbidden Palace constructed in Shuruppak. Wheeled and dealed our spices, we are now at +84 turn!

1465 AD- Magnetism is researched, Metallurgy is ordered to be studied.

1480 AD- Babylon constructs Shakespeare's Theater, Newton's University is to be constructed. Privateers are ordered to be constructed in random cities.

1485 AD- Metallurgy is discovered, Steam Power is ordered to be researched. We are in a "New Era of Prosperity". Nationalism is given to us. Palace expands.

My turn ended in 1500 AD! This is just a skeleton of what happened. I named it the "era of no gratitude" because infrastructure and city improvements were the name of the game, and frankly thats not how hero's are made ;) . I got our economy out of the red and we are now getting +122 a turn. We have 1000 gold in the coffers, Wall Street is 2 turns away, Steam Power is 3 turns away.

To the next ruler--- this game is in the bag, have some fun! I chose to build some privateers to have some fun in foriegn waters, I love doing that :D . But to each his own, your the ruler now... :king:
 
LK, sure, no problem. I figured this out by watching the AI's, it's a simple pattern. I've created an image and marked a number of squares on a grid around an example city.



Every square within two radius of the city, plus squares directly on the axes at 3 radius, are considered "too close" to existing cities by the AI, and it will not settle in any such square. You take this pattern, mentally apply it to every city in the area, and take note of the white dots this matrix would create. All those squares are off limits, as are any lands within the cultural borders of any civilization. If every square in an area is off limits, the AI's will not settle. Fairly simple.

This information can be exploited in a number of ways, including what would be necessary to prevent the AI from founding cities you don't want them to -- be that by way of choosing your own sites to crowd out all legal AI sites, or by stationing units on such squares until your cultural boundaries reach out to cover them for you. I chose a pattern to crowd out the AI in our game, to reduce our hassles. This info can also be used to station units on sites where the AI MIGHT settle, but early in the game when you can't stop them from settling somewhere, but might be able to limit their encroachment on your borders or into some area you hope to grab for yourself by interfering with their ability to reach sites of highest interest to them.

I believe there is another layer of "undesirable but legal" squares around the white dot area, as the AI tends to put more distance than that to its cities if it can, but that sort of thing is more difficult to nail down solely from observation.


- Sirian
 
Up next - Garsonga

Well there is no question a succession game can pull off a 20000 pt city win. We have a little over a hundred turns to go, WITHOUT newtons.

I may have to start thinking about game LK8 ;)
 
Hi there, I don't know if you're following the RBD succession games or not, but that's the general group that I came from to here. I've been following this game since I saw that Sirian was playing in it.

You guys have proved (and proved well) that the one city cultural win is attainable in a succession game with the scientific/religious Babylonians, who get both religious and scientific cultural improvements on the cheap, so why not up the ante for LK8? How about doing it with the Zulu (or the Americans, or some other civ that doesn't happen to be Scientific or Religious)? Or perhaps make it a true One City Challenge, no settlers, and raze any captured cities. Or perhaps both? :flamedevi
 
I would definitely like to take that challenge! Sign me up if LK8 is going to be like this!!! :king:
 
I believe the difficulty factor, much more than the civ choice, impacted the degree of victory here. Saving a couple of turns on some libraries and cathedrals hardly mattered, since the real strength of the win came in landing so many wonders. It would have been the same as the Americans, and perhaps easier as the Zulu, with the military strength to a win a war sooner. If the AI had production bonuses, that would have (among other things) prevented us from getting quite so many ancient wonders.

This was a good team. Pggar expertly built up just the right amount of troops to hand me ready-to-win military scenerios on both of my last two turns. All I had to do was not blow it. :)


- Sirian
 
First off - GREAT JOB! It's been lots of fun watching you play. Great team work!!!!!!!

If you do another one, I think it will be interesting if your starting position is not as good. I agree that the main reason for your success has been the ability to build virtually any wonder when and where you wanted. Had you started a little slower, I think the odds would have been reduced and it would have been more challenging.

Whatever you play next, we'll be watching!!
 
So begins the reign of King Garson the Railroad man.

1500-1505 AD Wall Street completed in Akkad. Building riflemen in various cities.

1510 AD Steam Power discovered. Started Electricity 6 turns.

1515-1535 AD Started building railroads to connect the cities.

1540 AD Discovered Electricity, started Medicine 6 turns.

1545 AD Joan wanted MPP and RoP I sent her packing with 10 gold. Zulus declared war on France imagine that!

1550-1560 AD French destoryed Zulu's, guess you don't mess with Joan huh. Discovered Medicine, started sanitation.

1565 AD Playing with Privateers, thanks CD! Redid spice trade with Aztec's, 30 gold and World map they're polite with us now! Well, guess they really like our spice.

1570-1575 AD Newton's University completed in Babylon.

1580 AD Sanitation discovered. started researching replaceable parts.

1585-1595 AD Played with the Privateers and build railroads.

1600 AD Started hospitals in several cities, retired to a little house by the railroad station, get to watch the trains come in!

Good Luck future leaders!

Garsonga
 
Lee the culture monger is back again ;)

Pre-turn - We have over $4000, so upgrades coming soon. However, I will wait until replaceable parts before doing so.

1605 AD - Our privateers are wimps. Lose one trying to kill a junk ship. Railbuilding / Production.

1610 AD - American comes asking, so we give them Democracy for military tradition, $13, and world map. We probably won't need it, but Ur begins the militrary academy. We begin researching Scientific method, since I want the wonder. Switch Sirian's Isle south to Harbor, so that it can access our resources. Of course, resource screw over, and we don't have rubber. More R/P.

1615 AD - Burn down a lot of cash upgrading our forces. More R/P.

1620 AD - Tell the Aztecs to leave, and there do :) More R/P.

1625 AD - Scientific method completed. Researching Industrialization. More R/P.

1630 AD / 1635 AD - Just R/P.

1640 AD - Our privateers do something and sink 2 caravels. Scracth 1 civ - America destroys the Indians.

1645 AD - Back to the exciting R/P.

1650 AD - Express rush a factory for Babylon, now that we know industrialization. Of course, R/P.

1655 AD - Theory of Evolution ordered. It will take just 12 turns! Persia demands spices, I refuse, then give him a free world map. Persia back to polite. Eridu orders up battlefield medicine. Can't forget, R/P.

1660 AD - R/P is paying off -I watched the number of turns to complete Battlefield medicine drop as I built the net around Eridu.

1665 AD - Oh well, back to turns of just R/P.

1670 AD - We have an elite Privateer. Of course, still doing R/P.

1675 AD - ZZzzzzz. The culture monger is having a hard time staying awake. Must be do to the exciment of R/P.

1680 AD - The military academy is done. I didn't bother with an army, as this one is almost done! More R/P.

1685 AD to 1700 AD - Wake me up when the railnet is done.


Summary - Universal Sufferage in Babylon next. ToE completes in 3 turns. Babylon has 60 turns to the game ends. 106 culture a turn with 13879 total. This is without Toe.


This is my last round

Up next - Pggar


Edit - Deleted old save game to save space.
 
Top Bottom