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Suffering at the hands of the RNG

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Lemon Merchant, Apr 13, 2013.

  1. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    In general the idea that a dealer can control where the ball lands beyond a very general area is laughable, though given how extraordinary that would have been I see your point.

    Oddly enough when a colour hits a lot in a row people tend to bet against it, saying that the other colour is 'due', but when an individual number hits more than twice in a row people tend to stack their bets on that number.

    It's interesting to see peoples contradictory behaviours when gambling, there are so many of them and they get to be so prevalent. Superstitions are like that I guess.
     
  2. Jeros

    Jeros Chieftain

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    You know the RNG threw a curve ball when a random AI city falls to barbs that you know was well defended, or at least defended enough against a dude with a club and a loincloth.

    I play Noble, I have seen the barbs do some awful damage to civs early game, even wiping one out as I recall.


    At some point I am going to jack up the difficulty and put raging barbs on.

    Dat chaos.


    Also part of the reason I love rushing great wall, not only does it allow me to go into simcity mode in my lands without the need for many troops before borders start to get close. It also helps slow down the AI.
     
  3. Mec AntiKythera

    Mec AntiKythera King

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    Or make sure they get some promoted archers early . . .
     
  4. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

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    Only after Deity becomes beatable:wallbash:
     
  5. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    Here's a different RNG story...

    I've got my tail in a crack. Took Athens and destroyed the Greeks, and kept the city because it had the Great Wall...but it's so far away that the maintenance is a crippler. It's warfare or bust, because I must plunder to balance the budget. Many turns pass...very many. I'm desperately stomping on Shaka trying to accumulate enough cash to tech alphabet, and I'm close. I'm also closing in on a great spy in Athens. My cities can't really build anything at this point. I can't afford more units and I've built all the buildings, even buildings I didn't particularly need. I'm gearing up to mass produce spies to do a major tech catch up and it's getting critical because Shaka is building longbows and my war is slowing down accordingly.

    I fill all my libraries with scientists, except Athens. Drat. Rome will pop either a prophet or a scientist two turns ahead of Athens. Do I take one of Rome's scientists away to slow them down? Of course not! I put a scientist in Athens for a handful of turns. It will still be 94 to 6 for the great spy.

    So I'll be building an academy in Rome.
     
  6. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I've kicked out a GE the turn after completing the mids. A pleasant surprise.
     
  7. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    I disagree.

    Climbing the difficulty ladder is basically a process of learning what you can't afford to do. So the game loses some unpredictability and in my opinion becomes less fun. I climb the ladder more by accident than design.
     
  8. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    Post Monarch they start with free archers and all their units get a % bonus vs barbarians. On prince and below this really slows down the AI though.

    I came to the same point as you once I found that I could consistently beat Emperor, but had little to no fun in doing so.

    I can't beat Deity without cheesy tactics (though perhaps thats actually how you beat Deity in general :( ) But I don't really have any interest in learning.

    I'm quite happy to play on monarch so I can do what I want and don't have to worry much, or playing on prince for 'sandbox mode'.

    I find higher civ levels unfun and unrewarding. I can and do have fun beating top difficulty levels on games like HOMM, Imperialism, or AOE, I feel a lot less restricted playing high levels on those games than Civ.

    With Civ there's just so many things you can't or shouldn't even play with on high levels (early religions ect), plus you're WAY more likely to get RNG screwed in Civ (and HOMM has luck\morale to rng screw you and imperialism can dole out some really crappy starts :) )

    TBH a lot of the problem is that the civ combat engine is badly concived, and always has been bad. (Civ IV is even leaps and bounds ahead of previous civs too :( )
     
  9. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    Thats pretty sweet.
     
  10. Lemon Merchant

    Lemon Merchant Disinterested Observer Moderator

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    Bingo. I don't bother going beyond Monarch for the same reasons. I usually play Noble when testing BAT so I can get to the end of the game, but when I play for fun it's at Monarch (and I lose, badly. :lol: I need more practice. Much.More.Practice.) I just don't see the need to go higher. It's just more frustrating for me at the higher levels, and I don't play to be frustrated.
     
  11. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    Thats right.

    And the key is 'frustrating'. I don't mind playing for a challenge, but higher civ levels just seem to be frustrating to me.
     
  12. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I'm in the same boat. I'll play emp, but I'll reset till I get at least a decent start. If it's not fun, what's the point. Every now and then I'll try higher, but I just don't like having to pay attention to every decision. But I do love reading about how it's done here. I have learned a lot.
     
  13. 6K Man

    6K Man Bureaucrat

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    Add my name to those who aren’t interested in climbing levels anymore. I’ve beaten emperor on a normal map (not the huge maps I usually prefer) but doing so felt like a chore, and not something I’d care to repeat.

    So – like some others have said of their own play – I sandbox. I play above my level and give myself advantages in WB, or below my level and give myself handicaps. I clobber the AIs in LoR at Monarch level, and start and abandon multiple K-Mod games at Monarch. I swap nations with the leading AI in WB and then marvel at how badly an AI can mismanage its empire and still be running away in score, techs, and power. And every now and then, I play a “real” game on Prince or Monarch. Real, unless you don’t think Epic speed is real. :rolleyes:

    On topic: Just lost 3 Galleys (on the same turn) trying to kill a barbarian Galley that was bearing down on my seafood (first one didn’t even damage the barbarian, last one lost at 90%+ odds). That was my entire navy. Next 3 turns, I can wave goodbye to my capital’s food surplus.
     
  14. Drakarska

    Drakarska Epic Dadness

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    I play Mon as well, usually with RB checked. Nothing quite like having barb frig's and Gal's show up and drop off a bunch of mace's and heavy cav's right next to your freshly built city.
     
  15. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    I hate barbarian gallies, esp pre metal casting.
     
  16. vincentz

    vincentz Programmer

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    One thing I always hated, was (and Im not going to be popular here) the LACK of RNDs

    Everytime you shoot a catapult it does EXACTLY the same amount of damage to the enemies walls.
    Everytime you fire the artillery into the enemy army, it is the EXACTLY same amount of units getting the EXACTLY same amount of collateral damage.
    Every time you send you stealthfighter on a mission against the enemy infantry, it does.... yup, you guessed it, the EXACTLY same amount of damage.
    Strange, isnt it?

    Well, I messed around the gamecore.dll, and it was surprisingly easy to randomize those outcomes :

    Spoiler :


    So... any thoughts on that? Pros/Cons?
     
  17. Lemon Merchant

    Lemon Merchant Disinterested Observer Moderator

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    Show me how! Show me how!!!! :worship:
     
  18. vincentz

    vincentz Programmer

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    well, everytime there was a outcome I wanted to randomize (in CvUnit.cpp) I just put a "random soren" around it ;)

    Code:
    return (GC.getGameINLINE().getSorenRandNum([COLOR="Red"]iDamage[/COLOR], "Some Log Message"));
    In example it returns iDamage, I then put the randomizer "around" it. It will then give me a 0-idamage result. I will have to, in many cases, double up the damage in XMLs, so the average results will be around the original constant (average of 0-20 is 10 but if the XML said 10 (bombard damage f.ex) then the average would be 5, which would have halved the efficiency of the unit, which is not intended.)


    edit : note that the uploaded file also contains Air Unit XP merged.


    dbl edit : instead of messing with XML values, another way of "normalizing" the units is to add a *2. While the result then always will be equal numbers, it might be the easiest solution.
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Drakarska

    Drakarska Epic Dadness

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    I'm really liking this idea a lot. Lemon, you thinking of adding this to BUG?
     
  20. Lemon Merchant

    Lemon Merchant Disinterested Observer Moderator

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    @vincentz:

    Thanks very much. That's pretty nifty.

    I can't add it to BUG (not allowed), but I'm thinking of adding it to Better BAT AI.
     

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