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Suffering at the hands of the RNG

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Lemon Merchant, Apr 13, 2013.

  1. TezaPsyborg

    TezaPsyborg Warlord

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    One I remember from a few months back went something like this...

    Playing the Chinese I had founded Judaism and converted my nearest neighbours to my religion, all except the Buddist Montezuma who had refused to open his borders. War ensued and we completely battered each other. I was feeling really pleased that just by the skin of my teeth, with most of my cities showing red unhappy faces from whipping troops, I had forced him to capitulate. Great I thought, I'll get him to open his borders and convert him to my religion.

    THE VERY NEXT TURN what should happen but the following message pop up...
    'A marriage in the Buddhist tradition has outraged the Portuguese'.

    Montezuma obviously decided to shine him on by throwing lavish celebrations and Portugal declared war on both of us. Needless to say Portugal, who I had taken pains to convert to Judaism to boost relations and was on the opposite side of me to Monty, steamed straight through me in my weakened state to get to Monty and avenge this shocking insult...
    :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash:
     
  2. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    When a little unexpected combat result just isn't enough, the RNG can use those random events to really break out the big guns!
     
  3. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    ^
    That is why I went in a crusade to understand most game mechanics. To be the most RNG independent possible. Knowing how the game works can drastically lower RNG infections.
     
  4. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Agreed, but there is little rational reaon to use events on in forum games or any competitive game ever.

    They should have just made a setting called "skill equalizer" and lumped in all of the features aside from pure RNG that can alter the outcome of the game independently from player decision-making.

    I'm not sure how you'd deal with spawns however. A balanced spawn algorithm would be a tremendous achievement indeed.
     
  5. Mec AntiKythera

    Mec AntiKythera King

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    Marriages often lead to backstabbing, but there is nothing random about that.
     
  6. Lemon Merchant

    Lemon Merchant Disinterested Observer Moderator

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    Even when your partner is at friendly. :lol:

    "You've said the wrong thing again! You suffer a -20 diplomatic penalty from your wife!"
    :rolleyes:
     
  7. traius

    traius His own worst enemy

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    I'm not sure how random events are skill-equalizers. They might do something ridiculously great like your praetorians get free cover... or they might just give the enemy AI free cover on THEIR praetorians. Isn't random just random?
     
  8. Lemon Merchant

    Lemon Merchant Disinterested Observer Moderator

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    Personally, I like random events. I like it when the game throws a curve at me and I have to adapt to something good or bad. I find the bad things a challenge sometimes, and I enjoy a good challenge. I wouldn't play if it wasn't challenging. Random events just a little more realism for me, like real life. It's all random.
     
  9. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I can see why the purists complain about them when they're doing comparison games, but I'm with you, I like them. It changes things up and gives you challenges. Especially if you overcome the worst ones. But then what do I know? I still like huts. Even at the upper levels where I know it benefits the AIs more than me.
     
  10. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    Problem with random events for me always was, they often punished the "best plays".
    For example with events off, it's nonsense building more units than you really need early, instead of stuff like granaries.
    But if you suddenly get rampaging barbs poped right next to one of your cities, playing inefficient would have been better..so it was somewhat frustrating for me to watch that, and never looked back after turning them off.
     
  11. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    In case you're missing the definition, random factors that influence the outcome of a game independently from player choices or skill are, in fact, skill equalizers.

    Everyone has their preferences, but they run directly counter to the game's design itself. It is actually possible to be punished for good play or rewarded for bad play. Probably more grating, however, are the really cheesy BS ones like ones forcing you to DoW into a defensive pact or erasing your entire army instantly. Ones that *drastically* influence diplo (either positively or negatively) are pretty annoying too.

    +1. They don't even follow usual spawn rules. You can literally be tele-fragged. While the game is always RNG-dependent to some extent (though it didn't have to be as much as it is), introducing factors that actively undo sound decision making based on extremely low probability outcomes runs counter to the planning and optimization that go into the *strategy* of this game in the first place.
     
  12. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Yes, it's personal preference. But for me " happens" is part of life and should be part of the game. If you want to play a game with 0 random elements, play chess.
    Just my preference.
     
  13. Mec AntiKythera

    Mec AntiKythera King

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    Yes, even when your partner is at Friendly! I guess all spouses are Catherine's, willing to be bribed into a DoW regardless of current diplo status. There are also some serious invisible diplo modifiers at work there, try figuring out those mechanics sometime!
     
  14. vincentz

    vincentz Programmer

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    • Our game designers have developed a new addictive game of Civilization. How shall we proceed?
      1. Send congratulations to the developers. Our people should enjoy this game.
        All cities +5 :) (suffer a -20 diplomatic penalty from your wife.)
      2. This game seems to have great educational potential. Suggest that it be used in our educational system.
        All cities +10 :science: (suffer a -20 diplomatic penalty from your wife.)
      3. Computer games? They have no place in our society! Sell the franchise to foreign buyers!
        Recieve 250 :gold: (loose 500 :gold: to your wife.)
     
  15. AdamCrock

    AdamCrock Polish Pudding

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    :lol::clap::clap::clap:

    btw. Congrats on getting in on the front page of CFC Vince ! :goodjob:
     
  16. Lennier

    Lennier Emperor

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    Hey! Leave my wife out of this! :D
     
  17. Lemon Merchant

    Lemon Merchant Disinterested Observer Moderator

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    Heck, I know the mechanics by heart and even I can't understand them! :lol:
     
  18. west india man

    west india man Immortal

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    While I've lost individual 99% battles that never really mattered in C2C, I have won at under 5% odds several times in the Greek World mod that comes with vanilla CIV. :D
     
  19. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    My preference would be that you leave the completely bogus, over-used, canned-spammed, and nonsensical comparison to chess out of the equation as a "counter argument" that says nothing at all and is in fact 100% useless.

    I'd be nicer about it, except that it's been used many years and it was complete garbage the very 1st time it was used :lol:.

    Preference is fine, "non-argument" drivel doesn't help anything at all.

    As for "part of life", the game isn't life, it's a game. Not only that, it's a strategy game with some purported balance. The vast majority of game mechnics reward careful planning and accounting for contingencies. However, events are extremely low-probability things with tremendous impact, and some of them have no strategy in them whatsoever...in fact a lot of them don't. I know people like "skill equalization", especially when it helps them and they need the help, but this still has comparatively little to do with strategy, and often nothing.

    Compare it to say combat RNG, where collateral and #'s can keep the outcome from being decided on a single RNG roll, and where you take a risk/reward evaluation without overbuilding for a < 5% probability at a critical juncture...or losing 10000 :hammers: instantly.

    I'm particularly bitter about this because allowing huts/events was a major mistake and created a barrier to competition in hall of fame...a precedent that found its way into civ V's awful iteration of it also.
     
  20. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Why so serious? It's just a stinking game. One that has a RNG. I guess that means there's a random element. No matter what you do RANDOM is part of the game. It's like that joke about would you sleep with someone for a million dollars. It's just a matter of how much is OK. You would like to remove all of it but you can't. A preference for how much should be allowed is always a valid thing to argue. One extreme is a game of all chance and the other is a game of no chance (hmmm, chess seems to qualify for that) So you garbage comment is just silly.

    Some might consider the game more of simulation instead of a pure strategy game (due partly to the fact that there are random elements) Doh.

    And for your bitterness, that seems to have more to do with people making decisions and not the game itself.

    And I don't know how many times I said I could understand it for those that are using it as a D*** waving competition and that it was my personal preference so I don't see your problem.

    It's a game that has some strategy and some luck. Just like real life. If you want to view it as something else, fine. That's what the custom settings are for.
     

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