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Suggestion: Ability to get professional missionaries

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by lyciummusic, Sep 15, 2019.

  1. lyciummusic

    lyciummusic Chieftain

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    Greetings. I think that we should be able to "buy" missionaries from Europe or from Pope via dialogue. Isn't it strange to say some random colonist to go preach natives religion?

    It should be expensive to stop overusing, though.
     
    pauldst and Drunk-Monk like this.
  2. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I thought you could buy missionaries from Europe.
     
  3. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity Supporter

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    We could give this part an overhaul. The game is pretty much vanilla when it comes to buying units in Europe meaning there is a list of what the player can buy and the price increase each time a unit is purchased. There is a different list for which units can show up on the dock on their own and when a certain expert shows up, it lowers the chance for that expert to appear in the future.

    Do anybody have any idea on how to improve this? We can use numbers such as how many units of the type the player has and if the player ever had any of a certain type, turns since last time the player bought a unit of that type etc. Also this currently runs based on teams rather than players. Should we move it to players or should be stick to increasing the price just because a teammate buys a certain unit?
     
  4. CptBadger

    CptBadger Chieftain

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    See, I've wondered about the price increase. It's designed to balance the game, I understand.

    But as an example. You start hiring professional weavers, to improve your extensive cloth trade, wouldn't that increase the chance of weavers showing up on the docks? They know there's work, and money. If you have no Pearls anywhere in your new world, or no whales, why would pearl hunters or train oil makers show up in droves? There's no assured work. I mean, every now and then, yeah. But I've seen 3 train oil guys on the docks at one time and no whales to be found.

    Maybe we could adjust weighting for the docks, increase certain trades for using those trades. Missionaries could be weighted based on crosses and missions and monasteries. If you buy a specialist, that should increase weight. Maybe even if you're selling a large amount of certain goods (raw or finished) more likely specialists of that production chain.
     
  5. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Warlord Supporter

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    Because most of the gameworld would probably still be unexplored and they come to the harbour in the hope that you continue to explore and discover some pearls or whales and establish a city taking advantage of those resources.

    You can remove the specialty from any specialist and turn them to a normal free citizen. So if specialists are cheap to have they are still better than petty criminals or indentured serf to take.
     
    Hecur likes this.
  6. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity Supporter

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    You are thinking in modern terms. It just didn't work like that in a feudal system with widespread usage of serfdom. If the new world recruits weavers, the number of weavers would drop in Europe. This would make it less likely for weavers to go to the new world because serfdom meant they would need a written permission from the local lord and unsurprisingly he didn't like losing the few educated people he had, particularly not losing weavers if orders from the king just took some weavers away from him. One reason why the local lord had this power was because he had the duty to ensure supply to the people. If he didn't have enough farmers, he would have to buy food from elsewhere for his own money to meet demand. Because of that he was strongly encouraged to ensure he had enough farmers.

    There is another aspect of this, which is flow of information. I would dare to say immigrants have never really known what went on where they decided to go to. If you were in the new world and your future depended on attracting colonists, would you say "it's much harder work than you are used to, you will earn less money and there is a constant risk of native attacks and all sorts of new diseases"? No, you would say something completely unrealistic and once people figured out they were tricked, it would be too late to turn back. There are several documented cases of this happening and it's not just old. It happened a lot during the 19th century. To quote The Emigrants "There are two kinds of folk in America. There are those who become rich because they've been here so long and there are some who have come so recently they haven't had time to get rich." (read: 100% of the people will get rich eventually).


    As interesting as it is to write about this topic, it doesn't bring us any closer to figuring out what to do about the game mechanics.
     
    cammcken likes this.
  7. Drunk-Monk

    Drunk-Monk Chieftain

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    I think the system could be improved by having it tied more to the event system, for example a "War in Europe" event would mean the supply of Soldiers is restricted and/or there price increases. This could also be used for other events, for example a "European Whaling Boom" would increase the price of Whalers and their Ships, when it ends the price would decline. In my opinion this supply and demand model would produce more interesting games, than the static economic model we currently have.

    Also, is the team still planning to change learning by doing? One of the team members idea about colonists having history's of work experience, and being able to gradually transition from one speciality to another, is far superior to the very "gamey" clear specialist action we have now.
     
  8. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity Supporter

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    I like this. I don't see the manpower to do it within the near future, but maybe somebody wants to do it? We will always accept help from more people. If we can have a team of a decent size, then we can do something like events where one person makes the events and another add the needed programming changes to support new ideas. In fact we can use more people for all tasks, even as non-technical as filling in more historical text for the colopedia or translating.

    Maybe I should make a pinned thread on what kind of people we would like to join the team (read: everybody who wants to do anything, almost regardless of skills).

    I would still love to include it, but it's currently not on the roadmap for 2.8. While it would be awesome to include everything we want, doing that means it would take forever to make the release ready. We have to be realistic and accept that something might be several releases into the future.
     
  9. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I think you should be able to post ads for certain specialists at the docks for a small fee. This should marginally increase the percentage for them turning up. That's the only tweak you need.
     
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  10. Drunk-Monk

    Drunk-Monk Chieftain

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    I don't have any programming experience, but I would be willing to write text and proofread. I also have an interest in the historical time period and if you check my posting history, you will see I have many ideas about game concepts and features. Thanks, for your continued work on the mod.
     
  11. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity Supporter

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    Now I start to wonder if I should write an overview of what kind of tasks there are for modders because programming is just one out of many. WTP currently have precisely 0 people who can't program and that might make the illusion that programming is everything for modding. In fact I would dare to say we need more non-programmers because we need to figure out what kind of game mechanics we want from the player's point of view and programmers tend to "pollute" the mind with "how do I code this".

    In fact this thread is good in that sense because it's all about a non-programming aspect of the game: how to get a certain unit. It's a game balance issue, which might be resolved by editing xml files only. The solution might be a new feature in programming, but then somebody will need to go through the units in xml and apply the new feature to make the game use it well. Programmers can do this, but non-programmers can too and the more tasks we take away from programmers, the faster the overall programming tasks will be completed.
     
  12. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I'm a programmer, (but not in any language that you probably use) but I could learn. I'll check in when I retire in about 4 months because I'll be looking for something to do.
     
  13. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity Supporter

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    Programming is kind of like driving a car. Moving to a new car with all the buttons and stuff in different locations is much less of an issue than getting into a car for the first time. Sure you need to pay attention to learn new locations, but fundamentally it's the traffic laws, same laws of physics etc. Programming is the same. If you understand the concept of programming, code structure etc, then moving from one language to another isn't difficult (as long as you aren't picking something obscene like caml).

    WTP is coded in C++ and has a 2D GUI coded in python. Learning either shouldn't be too difficult if you already know programming.

    Sounds good. Planing retirement as an endless vacation sounds nice, but within a week or two it becomes obvious that it's a plan for watching grass grow.
     
  14. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I've always wanted to learn more C++ and Python so sounds good. Yes, I have no concerns about learning new languages since I've done it many times. . As you've said, programming is programming. I'll have to golf a bit before I get back to watching grass grow. ;)
     
  15. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Deity

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    Perhaps you should have a background list of each unit type with a pool that tells how many Farmers, Lumberjack, etc are there in Europe at the start of the game. This is 100% of that profession.
    Say there a 10 in each pool. When a player hires a specific worker the pool decreases thus increasing the cost of the next one. Each pool is slowly refilled by time and may even exceed 100% thus decreasing the cost of the next worker, even below the original cost. Of course the those pools should be filled with the greatest possibility that are the lowest. But not necessarily always. Sometime a profession with 11 in the pool can get a 12th one, while the other with only 2 has no refilling for a long time. Unlikely but allow it to happen.
     
  16. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity Supporter

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    I like the idea of a counter of how many units there are in Europe, though I wouldn't actually declare it as units. Instead how about a system where each type of unit gets a point each turn. Getting a unit then cost multiple points. When generating a random unit for the dock, use the points for randomness. Imagine each unit having x balls (x is the number of points the unit has). They are all put in a bag and then one ball is picked at random and that's the unit that will appear on the dock. Since the number drops, odds for that unit to appear next time will drop.

    We can use xml to set min, max, turns between increase and how many points it will drop when a unit appears.

    If we get really creative, we can link this to CivEffects. This means we could do something like a leader trait giving +1 expert farmer points each turn.
     
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  17. Drunk-Monk

    Drunk-Monk Chieftain

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    That is a very interesting idea about an immigration "lottery". Perhaps your leader or civ could influence this as well, Warlike leaders/Civs have a higher chance of attracting Soldiers. Tolerant leaders a higher chance of attracting Refugees. Agricultral leaders higher chance of Farmers etc
     
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  18. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity Supporter

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    We can use CivEffect for that. The idea is that a player has a number of CivEffects and adds the numbers from each. Take for instance the number of units on the dock. The default CivEffect gives +4. Give the player another CivEffect, which provides +1, bringing the total number up to 5. The game now know it's 5 without any looping or other code to figure out the number. This means it doesn't know why it's 5, but the knowledge of the result is enough for what it needs to do. This means (unlike vanilla), adding more CivEffects will not slow down the game. The tradeoff is that whatever it stores needs to be able to add a CivEffect and then remove that CivEffect and return to the original number. This is a problem for multiplication and division due to rounding issues.

    Players don't get CivEffects directly. Instead they can be gained by gaining something, which will provide a CivEffect. This can be Founding Fathers, traits, civics, civilizations etc. The beauty of this system is that if we add a new way to gain CivEffects, it will instantly have all the abilities from all CivEffects. If we add a feature to CivEffects itself, all the ways to gain CivEffects will gain that new ability. This is so unlike vanilla where you can't just make a FF provide the same as a trait can provide.

    This system is implemented in the development version of WTP, but it's not used much yet. If somebody can figure out a way to make this system affect which units show up in Europe, then you will be most welcome to share your idea. We have the ability to turn units on/off by simply saying players can use units where the number is greater than 0. We can do something similar to control which units appear on the dock, meaning we can get the classic Colonization FF Brewster effect where criminals and servants will no longer appear. However according to this thread, we want something, which is better than just on/off. The question is what we want.
     

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