[SUGGESTION] Conquer enemy town on indian ground

Loriel

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 11, 2010
Messages
6
Hello!

Once again posting some random suggestion, but yet another irritating feature (if I remember correctly this was allready present in vanilla colonization)

When you conquer city from enemy european, if that city was founded on indian grounds, EVEN if you raze the city the indians consider you as stealing the ground. In my current game I was allmost the whole game in excellent relationship with sioux tribe, haven defence pacts and everything. We ended up in war with the Dutch (due the defence pact) and when I managed to conquer one of the dutch cityes Sixous declered war agains since I took their lands.

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Solution what I was thinking would be that if you conquer a land that used to be indian territory, game would first of all inform you it during the choice when decideing either to raze or keep. If you raze the city it would cause liberation bonus for the native tribe and if you keep the city, it makes sense that they would hate you for it.
 

raystuttgart

Civ4Col Modder
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
9,150
Location
Stuttgart, Germany
Hallo. :)

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The issue is know since the release of Civ4Col. It is simply really hard to fix this and changing that code is extremely risky.
(It is a Vanilla issue. It was not introduced by our mod. The code related to it is pretty messy and hard to change.)

You would have to recode lots of the sequence and structure of function calls in the code, risking lots of bugs.
When you conquer you take posession of plots and when you take posession of plots you may steal land and when you steal land ...

Generally I fully agree though that it is annoying. :thumbsup:
And I would also really like to see this fixed.

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Problem:

Only after all of that already happened the Player is actually asked "Keep or Raze".
Then it is however already too late, the Natives may already hate you.
(All the conquering logic already happened and the stealing land logic is integral part of it.)

Edit:
The conquering currently has to happen once your Unit beats the last defender and steps on the plot of the City.
(Because the function structure does not allow for anything else.)
There is no way of delaying it without recoding the complete structure and sequence of the function calls.

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Summary:

It has simply not been changed because the effort and risk is really high.
Nobody considered it to be worth investing the effort required so far.

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Solution what I was thinking ...
That is the problem with the "player perspective" without knowing the technical details.
Solutions are often not as simple as you imagine and would require much more effort than expected.

Yeah, it sounds simple. But in reality this "simple fix" may end in several weekends of effort.
(And the logic is so integral to the core gameplay that breaking it would break the mod.)

So let us have whoever is going to work on this come up with his own solution.
Maybe he will find something extremely elegant and something really simple.
Maybe it will not be as perfect as we want, but maybe it will be better than what we have now.

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In other words:
Again, who is going to implement this?
Who is interested to invest the effort required?
Who is skilled enough to recode all that logic without breaking the game?
 
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raystuttgart

Civ4Col Modder
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
9,150
Location
Stuttgart, Germany
Completely unnecessary comment:
(Unrelated to the suggestion itself.)
Spoiler :

See, I would love to have this improved or a better mechanism implemented. :thumbsup:
But requests are also a bit annoying to me, when I feel that nobody is ever going to work on them.

It is not like we lack ideas or are just waiting to implement the ideas of other people.
Quite the contrary, each of us has enough ideas of his own and could be busy for the next years.

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Thus the only requests I really like to hear start with "I am motivated to invest my effort to implement ...".
Because every request that does not start like that has a very very low chance to ever be implemented.

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We lack modders.
We do not lack ideas.

Simply bringing in new ideas or requests does not really help.
Only starting to become a modder and investing effort does.

With every idea you could bring in I could just ask again:
"Who is going to implement this?"

And in most cases the frustrating answer will be:
"Nobody is interested to invest his effort for this."

Only "Yeah, I want to have it, I will implement it." will make a difference.
Otherwise we have simply added another idea on the pile of dead ideas.

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Sorry, that this may not sound nice. :dunno:
But it is the only thing honest I can tell you.

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Of course you are free to suggest stuff if you want since it is a free forum and everybody may share ideas and give feedback. :thumbsup:
Just wanted to explain you the reality of modding to avoid frustration from unfulfilled expecations.

And yeah, it is frustrating for me that so many people with ideas show up, but so few people actually willing to become a modder.
Thus I am at a point where even more ideas without willingness to invest effort are worth very little to me.

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By the way:
Please do not take this personal. It is not.
You write nice posts and have nice ideas. :)
But as I said, ideas alone do not help.


Sorry for this post:
I am simply tired of asking all the time
"Who is going to implement this?"

It is like an old tired mule trying to climb up the mountain and constantly being hit to run faster or carry more ... :deadhorse:
(Currently all remaining modders already have their todos or are busy or even struggling with real life.)
 
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Loriel

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 11, 2010
Messages
6
No problems at all. I complete understand the problem where there isn't enough resources and since this is not a project that would generate money, but more for the love of the sport type thing! :D However I have slightly different view on brainstorming ideas, as I personally think that having good brainstorming can cause inspiration, not necessary to the idea to itself.

But I have to admit that I havent really browsed ton of threads to look up if some of these suggestions are allready posted :D

I have rudimentary knowledge from coding, mostly excel VBA, little C++ and pretty much basic python skills (if any :D ). I have much better understand and expertise on Cisco / Huawei / Alcatel / Juniper router and switch technologies, as I am working at one of the Finlands largest telecommunication companies as engineer. Sadly that most likely isn't really helping to solve these kind of problems. So at least for the time being I cannot personally help much in the coding part, but for testing stuff I would be more that happy to join if needed. :D
 

raystuttgart

Civ4Col Modder
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
9,150
Location
Stuttgart, Germany
About the suggestion itself:

It is an old annoying issue that several players have already complained about.
But at the moment there is simply nobody who volunteers to fix or improve it.
It would be great if that would change, so let us see what happens.

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Continuing the discussion about "brainstorming" that is not related to the actual suggestion. :)

Spoiler :

I complete understand the problem where there isn't enough resources ...
We have already implemented massive amount of new stuff. We are failing to come together to finish and publish.
So even implementing more stuff will not help us or community if we do not finally finish and publish.

However I have slightly different view on brainstorming ideas, ...
Brainstorming is great if there is a living community of motivated modders to implement stuff.
But at the moment we only have a handful of modders busy with real life just trying to keep a mod alive.

... can cause inspiration ....
We tried desperately to inspire new modders to be motivated to implement their own ideas but failed miserably.
The modders that have implemented new stuff or contributed reliably within the last years are always the same.

I have rudimentary knowledge from coding, mostly excel VBA, little C++ and pretty much basic python skills (if any :D ).
That is already a base to start with - actually better than many modders had.
It is all about motivation, enough time to practice and learn and perseverance.

... but for testing stuff I would be more that happy to join if needed.
We already have much more testers than modders. If there is not much that is implemented, there is also not much to test.
So more testers are not really needed. At some point we might publish a beta release anyways and will have community itself as testers.

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I will happily discuss new ideas if there are modder motivated enough to invest effort to implement them.
I will happily brainstorm new stuff once we have at least finished and published some of the stuff we already have.

But when we just juggle ideas that nobody seems to be interested to invest his own effort, there is little purpose in it.
It is basically just distracting from the stuff that people are actually investing effort into and needs to be finished first.

It would of course be a totally different story if you would say "Hey I have this idea and I want to learn how to implement it".
Then we would happily discuss with you and try to support you to get your idea realized.

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Summary:

If there is a modder motivated to implement it, I will happily discuss and brainstorm.
If you need and want to learn modding so you can implement it yourself that is best case.
But without modders to invest effort why continue brainstorming new ideas?
All remaining modders have so many ideas of their own that they do not need ideas of others.

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In other words:

New features do not get implemented because somebody had an idea but no motivation to invest his effort. --> This I hardly care about.
New features get implemented because somebody had an idea and also is motivated enough to invest his effort. --> This will get me exited.

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But sure, go ahead and suggest new ideas, it is a free and open forum. :)
Everything can be discussed if the people stay polite and friendly.

So give it a try and suggest something, maybe a modder will be inspired and like it.
But to figure that out, we simply have to ask: "Who is going to implement it?"
 
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MorphineCol

Chieftain
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
19
I always keep a pool of money during war because of this situation. You can always pay if I'm not mistaken for those "stolen lands" and then natives are less offended.
It's a pain in the ass for sure but not really impacting the game IMO if you're aware and prepared for it a little.
There are other weird things with Native AIs., like : all their units are disappearing when you eradicate a tribe (logic) but if you clean only an island/continent it does the same despite the tribe still existing elsewhere. Meaning you can quick rush their undefended cities because they don't defend properly (like all AIs in the game) and poof ! Your island is secured. When they got tons of units (and sometimes they really do), it feels like a hack.
 

raystuttgart

Civ4Col Modder
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
9,150
Location
Stuttgart, Germany
You can always pay if I'm not mistaken for those "stolen lands" and then natives are less offended.
I think I only implemented this for founding cities not for conquering cities.
It was possible there, because the founding decision is a different logic that can be delayed.
(The conquering logic is completely different and it happens almost instantly after battle won.)
 
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