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Suggestion for Man'o'war Ships

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Medicine_Man_55, Feb 1, 2009.

  1. Medicine_Man_55

    Medicine_Man_55 Warlord

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    It is a little bit of a shame that Frigates get phased out completely in the long run, especially as they did remain in gunpowder era navies even as large ships of the line appeared.

    I don't know if this is possible, but could the following be done?

    1) Make Man'o'wars a national unit (4 maximum)

    2) Raise the limit on # of Man'o'wars by +1 for each shipyard the civilization builds

    This would be a rather nice change. Truly massive navies would require many frigates. Frigates would also be required for miscellaneous escort duties; or galleons would have to be used alone in order to use the full movement (thus making them vulnerable to pirates/privateers). Man o wars would be the proverbial big guns used in pitched naval battles.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Neomega

    Neomega Deity

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    naw. Not enough ships as it is. You need lots of the heavy hitters, or your paying for a navy twice as big and half as effective. Naval invasions are hard enough as it is.
     
  3. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    Well, that's because your enemy spams man'o'wars too.

    There's not a lot of variety in ships in general. Especially given the lack of visual diversity between different races' ships. It would be nice to have various ships that are more specialised and counteract each other, rather than one everything-destroying man'o'war.

    A paper/scissors/rock style mechanic isn't especally deep, but it's more involving than strong = win
     
  4. Neomega

    Neomega Deity

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    its not because they spam too. IF they didn't have man o wars, they would just spam twice as many frigates. The object is to have a navy big enough to get through the tought "strong" shell to the juicy queen of the lines or galleons.

    but until rock/paper/scissors....

    It would be neat to see the naval game improved, but probably not going to happen any time soon, or at least not until the AI understands magic better.

    I did miss the max man-o-war count, though... hmm, now I must ponder.
     
  5. Thunder_Gr

    Thunder_Gr Emperor

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    Increasing the cost of MoW could do the trick, maybe...Make is so that you could have 2 frigates for the same time you need to get one MoW.
     
  6. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    Man of War should get several extra first strikes, as well as Fire Immune. Otherwise they are rather worhtless compared to say, Arcane barges. (also they should require Mithril as Mithril is magic immune)

    muahaha
     
  7. Morkonan

    Morkonan Warlord

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    There's a serious lack of a "naval game" in FFH2. But, considering how complex it is and how much fun all the other mechanics are, it's not too huge of a loss.

    The Man o' War really isn't that great of a unit, I agree. But, I wouldn't buff them up. If anything is done, give them an extra promotion BUT increase the support costs for them when they are out of your territory. They're great "vanilla" ships but there's really no naval strategy in FFH2 to warrant propping one up.

    I don't build them except to explore shipwrecks later in the game. I use Frigates as picket ships and Arcane Barges to escort Queen of the Line ships.

    Arcane Barges are... excellent. :)

    On a side note, if the AI ever figured out that tooling around on the ocean with a large navy was what all the cool kids do, revamping the naval units and putting in some detail there would be excellent. Sadly, that will not happen in FFH2 as it is feature locked. But, one can always look to the future when someone else ports FFH2 to a new game or new Civ release.
     
  8. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    Eh, at least give Man-of-War fire immune :p ... that will help them be more of a capital ship and less of a giant kindle ^_^
     
  9. Tlalynet

    Tlalynet Emperor

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    Actually fire resistance would make Man-O-Wars much more appealing.
     
  10. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    Rename the Man O' War to "gunboat", and make it smaller, and add first strikes and defensive strikes.

    then make approx same unit, only also add Mithril as a Requirement, call it Man O' War (of course), and give it 13/15, fire immune, also add first strikes and defensive strikes, (and also give it Fire II and Air II- this last part is optional)

    they require Gunpowder so Obviously they use weaponry more advanced than their predecessors, yet no first strikes for longer-range cannons, better cannons, or heck, actually HAVING cannons??? then tack on Mithril prereq for the proper Man O'War, and give it the extra 2 defense and fire immune it deserves, and if you want it to be really sparkly, also allow it Maelstrom and Fireball to actually live up to its CivPedia entry.

    otherwise change the entry to (foolish mortals on a boat with some soggy guns... and some better sails)

    in this way you can still have the GunBoat fill its niche that the Dev Team had probably decided upon, and then the Man O' War would be the true capital ship of the sea. (if you want it to be particularly badass give it summon Meteor instead of Fireball)
     
  11. Morkonan

    Morkonan Warlord

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    Well, now.. THAT would be impressive! Meteor Swarms! It's like a battleship except with magic!

    I dislike the idea of giving any wooden ship fire resistance. But, I like the idea of making them come with a bit more bang for the buck, so to speak. There'd have to be a substantial penalty though. Put in a cost modifier unaffected by improvements to make them expensive to build, increase their support costs and put in Coastal Defenses that can fire back.

    Hmm.. Maybe a deficiency in defending against Coastal Defenses would help balance it out? The trick is to make them desirable without making them overpowered.

    But, we need submarines to counter them... Where's the Gnome Submersible Fleet? At the bottom of the ocean, I assume... Hmm... A civilization of gnome tinkerers.. now that would be interesting... gnome flying machines, subs, battle-bots.. all that randomly exploded or went berserk every once-in-awhile.. :)
     
  12. Jenaelha

    Jenaelha fields of Elanor

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    Man 'o War do not need to be more impressive, they need to be controlled. I agree with limiting to 4 as National Units making them specialized and more affective. The Frigate and Arcane Barge become the workhorses which the AI can spam all they like (and they will). The only problem is this change will require more specialized handling that the AI may not be prepared to handle.
     
  13. Onionsoilder

    Onionsoilder Reaver

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    Around the Age of Exploration, many capital ships had bronze siding to protect them from cannonballs. I don't see why ships couldn't have a similar mechanic, only to protect them from fireballs. Maybe not Fire Immune, but Resistance surely. You know... I would be tempted to make a naval overhaul mod if not for the shoddy naval AI(I really have no idea why it is so bad compared to BTS.) Anyway, I'll still throw out some ideas:

    Battle-line Ship
    National Unit: 4
    15 :strength: 3 :move:
    3 Cargo Space
    Requires Blasting Powder
    Requires Astronomy
    Requires Iron or Mithril
    Requires Gunpowder
    Starts with Magic Resistance'
    Starts with Guardsman

    Tempest Ship
    National Unit: 4
    9 :strength: 4 :move:
    Requires Strength of Will
    Requires Astronomy
    Requires Air Mana
    Starts with Air I, II

    Corvette
    10 :strength: 6 :move:
    1 Cargo Space
    Requires Astronomy
    Requires Machinery
    1 First Strike
    Starts with Marksman
     
  14. Jenaelha

    Jenaelha fields of Elanor

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    I like the additional Naval units. Hawks should be able to patrol from the "carriers" too.

    That Corvette would be deadly with Marksman! Our poor limited National Units would be so vulnerable. Unless you also allow the Guardsman promotion?

    I'm not too keen on the Magic Resistance, maybe Fire Resistance, Cold Resistance, et. al. but not the blanket protection?
     
  15. Morkonan

    Morkonan Warlord

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    You could allow hawks to be stationed on the Man o' Wars. Battleships took to using catapult launched seaplanes for "spotters" so I don't see why fantasy ships couldn't do the same thing with charmed birds.
     
  16. Skitters

    Skitters Prince

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    If you mean copper sheathing, it was actually to make the ships faster and stretch out the requirement for dockyard maintenance.

    Ships serving in the tropics in particular were prone to having shipworm eat their way into the wooden hull - causing drag.
     
  17. Neomega

    Neomega Deity

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    OO should have a permanent sea creature summon or maybe even spawn pool. Likely with submarine powers. Maybe even do that to replace the (in most people's opinion) OP tsunami.

    Big no-way to marksman ships idea.

    Maybe dwarves should get some type of ironclads

    It would also be interesting to have a national unit ship that could capture animals/beasts
     
  18. Onionsoilder

    Onionsoilder Reaver

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    Hmm... well with Marksman I thought it could pick off transports, not units inside the transports per se. And larger ships like the Battle-line or Man O' War could get Guardsman. Maybe the Corvette itself could have boths Marksman and Guardsman, so you have to kill enemy corvettes first?
     
  19. Neomega

    Neomega Deity

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    Maybe... hope the AI could handle it.
     
  20. Emptiness

    Emptiness []

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    They can already Summon Kraken with their High Priests. Do you mean in addition to that?

    A Satyr on a ship works quite well for this purpose.
     

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