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Suggestion for Racial Weapon Types

Yaguer - Niome

Chieftain
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
7
Fairly inspired from one of Tasunke's post from the Sword and Axe's thread, I disagree with giving different models of the same unit unique bonuses based upon what their model is displaying. I think it would only be fair and an interesting new concept is if every civilization has a choice of choosing between different weapons for every melee unit they create. Furthermore we should consider discussing this with Kael to think about creating a separate technology branch on the possibility of having different and improving weapon types, with the whole idea below...

To start, their should be four weapon types. Axes, Swords, Spears and Maces. As you've sorta suggested Tasunke, every weapon type should have several general characteristics they all follow:
  • Weapon Type is Stronger to another Weapon Type
  • Weapon Type is Weaker to another Weapon Type
  • Weapon Type receives Defensive or Offensive bonus against City and upon or against Tile type.

The concept itself isn't complicated at all, basically you just need to know what the several bonuses each Weapon Type offers. The other two things you need to know is that every Race will allow only two of the four Weapon Types for balance purposes and unique grounds. Secondly is when you create any melee unit, like promoting them you have an option of what to choose their Weapon Type.

For example, the Orc's of the Clan of Ember's has a choice between Spears and Swords, whilst the Elve's of Svartal'far have access to only Swords and Maces. Every melee unit they create can only choose from those choices and it doesn't take any experience level, first choice you have and what you should do immediately. For balance purposes, the game should automatically choose one for you, and when you get to the unit you're basically making it final.

In my imagination it looks like this to me and without a doubt the majority of people that read this thread will disagree with my opinion below... I've read ten books into R.A Salvatore's Drizzt Do'Urden series, feel that's my source of credibility and I am no expert on weapons fighting in real life, so what y'all think?

Spears beats Mace, Mace beats Axe, Axe beats Sword, Sword beats Spear

Spear:

  • Spear Type is Stronger to Mace Type by 0.5+ Attack Strength
  • Spear Type is Weaker to Sword Type by 0.5- Defense Strength
  • Spear Type receives Offensive bonus against Cavalry by 1.0+ Strength

Axe:
  • Axe Type is Stronger to Sword Type by 0.5+ Attack Strength
  • Axe Type is Weaker to Mace Type by 0.5- Defense Strength
  • Weapon Type receives Defensive or Offensive bonus against City and upon or against Tile type.

Sword:
  • Sword Type is Stronger to Spear Type by 0.5+ Attack Strength
  • Sword Type is Weaker to Axe Type by 0.5- Defense Strength
  • Weapon Type receives Defensive or Offensive bonus against City and upon or against Tile type.

Mace:
  • Mace Type is Stronger to Axe Type by 0.5+ Attack Strength
  • Mace Type is Weaker to Spear Type by 0.5- Defense Strength
  • Weapon Type receives Defensive or Offensive bonus against City and upon or against Tile type.

I ask myself is this concept worth it? If it comes under heavy criticism FH should give it at least a chance because this modification has done much to make each Civilization unique. Since Axe's are so significant to the Dwarve's of Khazad and they are not seen with any other weapon's to my game knowledge, limit them to two? Furthermore we are broadening the depth of the tactical aspect of the game between units, in the end it's one minor bonus that still adds up. Plus who know's, we could expand a weapons-choosing system to mages, heroes and maybe even have different kinds of fortification tactics that add different advantages and disadvantages to weapon types. That's it.
 
a few minor points to start with:

it's not neccesary to include both strenghts and weaknesses, a strenght alone could suffice for both needs.
Afaik you simply copied the stronger/weaker stuff 4 times, since every single one lists as stronger vs cavalry.

Other than that, while this option would be interesting, it might add another level of micromanagement, complexity and general difficulty without really adding that much of gameplay value. A nice idea, but not worth the added difficulty of switching your army around with every foe you face.
 
Other than that, while this option would be interesting, it might add another level of micromanagement, complexity and general difficulty without really adding that much of gameplay value. A nice idea, but not worth the added difficulty of switching your army around with every foe you face.
I agree.
 
hmm, as to the name for the single unit, would Footman work? or is that far too generic.

As to the unique weapon's mod, would make a nice mod mod perhaps. Could diversify the melee line somewhat.

It could probably be merged with something that has weapon unique promos available, and an even MORE overlapped upgrade path through the various combat lines.

for instance, hunters with swords could equip armas to be upgraded to a sword footman, while a Horse with spears can "dismount" at a stables/barracks city to become a spear footmen. Champions perhaps could mount to become a Knight. Or a Man-at-Arms (professional Heavy Cavalry)

** Interesting note, there used to be a spear line spin-off for melee which ended in the national unit Shield Wall -> however now all National units primarily have higher attack than defense.
 
It seems to me that the same purpose could be achieved in a simpler way by bringing back the diversity of melee units that exist in BtS: e.g., axemen, swordsmen, spearmen, pikemen, macemen.

That won't happen in the main mod at this point -- it was quite a while ago that Kael decided to streamline the melee line by eliminating many of those units. I thought that was unfortunate, because fantasy worlds often have a quasi-medieval flavor, which units like pikemen and macemen add to.

Anyway, what's done is done at this point. It's a safe bet Kael won't be adding back melee units that he's long since removed. I'm pretty sure some of the modmods have preserved these units, so they might provide some of what you're looking for.
 
Demus said:
it's not neccesary to include both strenghts and weaknesses, a strenght alone could suffice for both needs.
Yeah but I just thought it was necessary.

Demus said:
Afaik you simply copied the stronger/weaker stuff 4 times, since every single one lists as stronger vs cavalry.

Yeah I did, but you must've seen an earlier version before I realized that, I didn't know what fill in those other three.

Demus said:
Other than that, while this option would be interesting, it might add another level of micromanagement, complexity and general difficulty without really adding that much of gameplay value. A nice idea, but not worth the added difficulty of switching your army around with every foe you face.

I agree completely and I'm afraid this concept might add unnecessary complexity to the game but so could equally moving your Hero around I feel is a fairly micromanaging aspect itself.

When it comes to equipping your melee units from these four types of weapons, the choice you make is permanent, you can't change your weapon thereafter to reflect their absolute training and familiarity to it. If anyone thinks that isn't right, than switching weapons or having other weapons could be an ability or a future promotion, besides that, Drizzt Do'Urden always used his two primary enchanted scimitars.

It's another layer of depth that I don't really see generating a large amount of complexity, I really don't. You simply choose the melee units weapon as an promotion at start, can't change it or add onto it and you try to have a large flexible army to counter other less-flexible armies.

Nor'easter said:
It seems to me that the same purpose could be achieved in a simpler way by bringing back the diversity of melee units that exist in BtS: e.g., axemen, swordsmen, spearmen, pikemen, macemen.

That won't happen in the main mod at this point -- it was quite a while ago that Kael decided to streamline the melee line by eliminating many of those units. I thought that was unfortunate, because fantasy worlds often have a quasi-medieval flavor, which units like pikemen and macemen add to.

Anyway, what's done is done at this point. It's a safe bet Kael won't be adding back melee units that he's long since removed. I'm pretty sure some of the modmods have preserved these units, so they might provide some of what you're looking for.

Well I'm hoping I can convince him to include this in the modificaiton itself, and not a modmod. It's much easier than having several different units because all you are doing is having several of the same skinned models switching weapons, attack and defense animations.

Tasunke said:
hmm, as to the name for the single unit, would Footman work? or is that far too generic.

As to the unique weapon's mod, would make a nice mod mod perhaps. Could diversify the melee line somewhat.

Let me ask you, is Warrior any generic from Footman? Matter of fact with an general attitude in-mind; in Warcraft 1 the first Human unit was called a Footman. A man in plate mail armor with a sword and shield. But I think Footman sounds more professional yet simple and numerous. I'd prefer that but I never did have an issue with Warrior itself.

Well my dream is to increase the tactical aspect of Fall From Heaven and I feel my OP suggestion doesn't necessarily burden the game because, the idea of choosing between two different weapon types out of four for every civilization is far less complicated than the magic system for Adepts, the Buildings, Wonders, Affinities. Y'all tell me from theory this is complex, yet we've seen the reality of magic and I'm not bashing magic it's a wonderful system, but in comparison and contrast, my suggestion is such a simple, simple concept and actually streamlined than having to build several different unit types, you can choose four different weapon types for every melee unit.

Weapon promotion - Remember which unit is which and is good against. That's it. Matter of fact we can go as far as "Goblin Swordsmen", "Elven Spearmen" or in general for all "Spear Footmen" or "Spear Warrior" to distinguish between the melee units on screen when you hover over them besides looking at their models and icons. Lastly, Fall From Heaven lacks the "this unit is good against this unit" aspect which is lacking.
 
This already (nominally, and probably in a more manageable form) exists in:

melee < archer < horseman < melee

Obviously they aren't rock-paper-scissors, but I dislike the model of everything just being an absolute counter to something else (ie. Fire Emblem). Flexibility is our friend.
 
The r/p/s system is better for vanilla civ4, where the civs are much more general. The system is almost unnecessary in FFH because of the civs' diversity. That's what I think.
 
"Spears beats Mace, Mace beats Axe, Axe beats Sword, Sword beats Spear" hmm, as someone who's played around with plenty of weapons but also isn't an expert by any means, I don't like it.

I'd have it... axe beats spear, spear beats mace, mace beats sword, sword beats axe.

Spear vs axe... axe wins, no question, as it's simple to just chop the damn spear in half.
Spear vs sword... tie... you can chop the spear in half, but it's not as easy with an axe, and the reach advantage could screw you.
Spear vs mace... here the spear's reach advantage really comes in handy and it wins no problem.

Axe vs sword... I give it to sword, due to the finesse difference.
Axe vs mace... makes sense to me that they're pretty much even.

Sword vs mace... if we're talking about mace as a loose weapon (ie, not a pointy metal club), I give it the edge here.

Anyway, the reason this won't happen isn't because it's a bad idea, but because it'd require new art.
 
Speaking as a weapon nut, the problem with these ideas is that each weapon served a different purpose.

A spear was the primary weapon to stop horses, because a horseman charging a solid line of spears is going to get himself impaled. It was also used against other units, with the primary advantage being that it outranged everything else (range depended upon time period and such, but ranged from 6 feet for gaels and such in roman times, to upwards of 15 feet for the swiss pike at the height of the age of chivalry), and even if the first spear missed, the next one probably wouldn't. As they were typically arranged between 3 and 5 rows deep per unit (and multiple units fight side by side or back up the one in front of them), that made it a very formidable defense, but not so great for the offense (have you ever TRIED marching with a bunch of LONG sticks... it isn't pretty).

The mace was the primary weapon of the infantryman. This was so because the mace had enough weight that it could smash through most armors, was easy to make, and didn't require particularly much skill to use decently. A skilled maceman is something to fear, but the majority of macemen weren't all that skilled. A mace is a rather short weapon (1-2 feet long), but because macemen were deployed with mace shield, helm, and occasionally some more armor (chain mail if they could afford it, padding or leather if they couldn't), they were exactly what you wanted to charge a rank of spearmen, as a spear wall vs a shield wall usually ends up with the shield wall winning. On the other hand, a charge of cavalry will usually go straight through them.

The ax was used one of two ways. The short axes were used much like a mace, while longer ones were generally considered polearms. The hammer was also used much the same as the ax.

Which brings us to the polearm. The polearm was a mix of the mace and the spear. It was not however designed to stop charging knights. Instead, it was designed to smash through the heaviest of armor, at significantly greater range than the mace. It was also designed usually to be able to hook a knight off his horse and bring him down to the ground, where he can be much more easily killed. While the spear was designed to stop charging knights, the polearm was designed to drop a knight once it made it into the melee, and the force of his charge was negated. Because of its design, it is significantly better than the spear against the shieldman, though still not the best weapon to counter it.

Lastly, there is the sword. Once again, the sword is divided in two ways - sword and shield and the greatsword. Sword and shield is used much the same as the mace and shield, with the advantage going to the sword against unarmored/lightly armored targets, and to the mace against more heavily armed targets. The greatsword however, despite being one of the most vaunted weapons, is actually not the best in any situation. What made the greatsword useful is it was generally second-best at everything, allowing the commander to throw a unit of greatswordsmen wherever the line needed to be held. Because of this, they gained status as the people who "Held the Line", and as such, all the glory hounds would seek to be in the unit of swordsmen. This is why the greatsword, in all its forms is so well known compared to the other weapons today.

Another thing to note is the climate in which weapons were used. The sword was VERY much preferred in persia, africa, and other warm weather states, because the weather made wearing armor rather uncomfortable, and the sword fares much better against lightly armored targets. The mace and ax were much preferred in scandenavia and the germanic areas (again in the age of chivalry) because the climate and the resources allowed heavily armored units, and the mace and ax do significantly better than the sword against an armored target. The heavier armor also made archers less useful, while in warmer weather, the light armor made for excellent targets for the archers.

I hope that someone finds my reply interesting and useful.

-Colin
 
Can't this basically be simulated with promotions already?
 
Yes, it could be simulated with promotions. The problem is that you don't want the promotion "Sword" on your unit "Axman" - it would get a little... odd. Basically, you would have to make the promotions change the unitart - something that is already done with the racial promotions, but we'd first have to make the unitart for something like a dwarven swordsman, or a svaltar axman...

-Colin
 
While I hate to brag, this is relevant to this thread: I have more than 10 years experience in historical fencing. And I've fought with spear/axe/sword/mace against spear/axe/sword/mace in any combination. This is conversion of my experience in Civ/FFH terms.

It is important to understand that at least two other factors must be included in this discussion: shield and formation. Finally, I think it is good to add non-spear polearms, like halberds and lochaber axes.

Formation is definitely most important thing in melee warfare. This was best proven by Romans, but Macedonians were notable users of formation before them. In Ancient Rome there was well-known saying, describing the power of formation.

Lone barbarian always defeats lone legionnaire.
Ten barbarians versus ten legionnaires is a balanced fight.
Hundred legionnaires will destroy hundred barbarians.
Whole legion will defeat unlimited number of barbarians.


Of course, it is just a saying, and legions had their losses, but in general &#8212; that is correct.

Formation upgrade shouldn't just grant some power against mounted units. I think that it should be available only to "civilized" civilizations, so Doviello and Clan are excluded. Magic-based civilizations and pacifists like Elohim too are excluded. This noticeable flaw should be balanced by some other means.
Formation should grant unit a bonus against all units, like combat. But it can only work if unit is equipped with formation-friendly weapons. Formation grants great protection against barbarians, because they can't use it. Beelining formation-enabling technology really helps against these hordes of lizardmen and goblins.
This upgrade should come only from some special "Drill Barracks" (or something) building. When it is built, it overwrites usual barracks. Instead of providing units with +2 experience points, it provides them with the Formation upgrade for free, and does not provides them with additional experience points. It should be impossible to gain formation by normal means, for experience points. Maybe some magic spells could provide it, but definitely not raw fighting.


Now, on weapons.

Improvised weapon: default club. Or something other. In general it works like mace, but way weaker. This "promotion" just means absence of any other, more sophisticated weapons. Can't be upgraded by metal.
Sword: if we are speaking about medieval european one-handed swords, then first thing is first &#8212; swords are designed to be used with shields. Without shield, sword is still good weapon, because if we are thinking about at least type XII, with pronounced crossguard, then we do have great parrying weapon. But anyway, to evade extra complexity (and I doubt that this idea evades it at all, but still) we will suppose that it always goes with shield.
Two-handed sword: much more modern device. Great offensive weapon, but can't be used in formation &#8212; it requires large space to be wielded. Of course, it can't be used with shield.
Spear: first strike. Great in formation. Shorter spears can be used with shields. Very nice weapon, to be honest. Actually it is not that easy to hack down the pole with an axe. It is possible, but not easy.
Pike: Longer spears are actually becoming pikes and can't be used with shields. This is the best formation-friendly weapon.
Mace: similar to one-handed axe, actually &#8212; this weapon is armor-killer. One-handed bearded axes can be used for parrying and for shield destroying. I think it is good idea to merge mace and one-handed axe into one weapon for purposes of this discussion.
Two-handed axe: similar to two-handed sword, greater damage, lesser parrying ability. Much cheaper to produce than two-handed sword.
Polearm: similar to two-handed axe, but can be used in formation. Less damage.

By the way, different weapon types should come with technological advances. For example, two-handed sword is a _very_ late invention. Spear and mace are most early ones. Two-handed axe, polearm and pike are somewhere in the middle. And not every civilizations should have access to And I excluded more "exotic" weapons like scimitars and whatnot. They can be included as faction-specific promotions. Most of them are faction-specific anyway; I can't imagine Doviello in plate armor with two-handed swords.


Now, on possible weapon bonuses in game terms.

Formation: +50% against units without formation. If enemy unit has formation, nothing happens. All heroes and some magical beasts ignore formation.
Shield: protection against arrows; +20% strength.

Improvised weapon: nothing.
Sword and shield: shielded; +30% against improvised, mace, spear and pike; can use formation.
Two-handed sword: +50% against melee units; additional +50% against melee units on attack. Shock as it should be.
Spear and shield: shielded; +1 first strike; can use formation; +50% against mounted units on defense.
Pike: non-shielded; doubles formation bonus against units without formation; +25% against units with formation; +25% on defense; can't be used without formation; +50% against mounted units; additional +50% against mounted units on defense.
Mace and shield: shielded; ignores shields; lowers enemy armor on 1 level; can use formation.
Two-handed axe: +100% against melee units on attack only, ignores shields; lowers enemy armor on 1 level.
Polearm: +50% against melee units, can use formation.

By the way, if we are going this way, then we should have some armor promotions. These works just like combat promotions, but they aren't bought with experience. Notice that mace and two-handed axe lowers enemy armor on one level. Thus, if you are going against enemies covered in Lamellar or even Plate armor, consider to take some can-openers. Plate becomes Lamellar, and Lamellar becomes Mail. Even better (or worse): crossbows and arquebuses lowers enemy armor on one and two levels relatively.

Padded armor: 10% strength, requires any crop resource. Very low price.
Leather armor: 15% strength, requires any animal resource. Average price.
Mail armor: 20% strength, requires metal, weakness to lightning. Average price, not higher than leather armor.
Lamellar armor: 30% strength, requires metal, weakness to lightning. High price.
Plate armor: 50% strength, reqires metal, weakness to lightning, can be used only on units of 5 level or higher. Extremely high price.

And, at last, something about ranged weapons. If we are going this way, then ranged weapons too should work as promotions.

Sling: +1 first strike chance on melee units without shield; +50% against animals. Available at Hunting. Default weapon upgrade on ranged units.
Bow: +2 first strike chances on melee units without shield; +100% against animals.
Crossbow: +1 first strike on melee units without shield; +100% against animals; +20% against melee units; lowers enemy armor on 1 level.
Arquebus: +100 strength; +1 first strike chance; +200% against animals; ignores shields; lowers enemy armor on 2 levels.

Both weapon and armor promotions can be bought for a unit in city with special building. They don't require experience: only gold, relevant technologies, resources and buildings to produce them. Heroes, at least of melee variety, should be able to use them.


Thus, basical melee units could be something like this:

Warrior: 3 strength, 1 move, +25 city defense. Can use armor up to Mail. Can use any one-handed melee weapon. Can use crossbow.
Footman: 4 strength, 1 move, +10 city attack. Can use armor up to Lamellar. Can use any melee weapon. Can use ranged weapons up to crossbow.
Armsman: 5 strength, 1 move, +10 city attack. Can use any armor. Can use any melee weapon. Can use ranged weapons up to crossbow.
Champion: 6 strength, 1 move, +25 vs. Melee Units. Can use any armor. Can use any melee weapon. Can use ranged weapons up to crossbow.

Champions can be promoted to familiar heroic units: Berserker, Eidolon, Immortal, Knight, Paladin, Phalanx. They are mostly fine as they are. Of course, all of them can use all melee weapons. Ranged are probably prohibited completely &#8212; they are melee specialists. And for flavor, Berserker can't wear anything better than Leather armor, but it should be balanced with his relatively higher base strength.

Ranged units:

Scout: attributes as usual, except +50% vs. Animals, because it is provided by weapon. Can use armor up to Leather. Can use any one-handed weapon, but shield is out. Can use sling and bow.
Hunter: attributes as usual, except +50% vs. Animals, because it is provided by weapon. Can use armor up to Leather. Can use any one-handed weapon, but shield is out. Can use sling and bow.
Archer: 3/5 strength, 1 move; 1 first strike. +20% chance to do 10% damage to units attacking this unit's stack. +25% City Defense. +25% Hills Defense. Can use armor up to Leather. Can use ranged weapons up to crossbow.
Marksman: 5/7 strength, 1 move; 1 first strike. +30% to do 15% damage to units attacking this unit's stack. +25 City Defense. +25 Hills Defense. Can use armor up to Leather. Can use any ranged weapons.
Sniper: 8/10 strength, 1 move; 1 first strike. +40% to do +20% damage to units attacking this unit's stack. +25 City Defense. +25 Hills Defense. National Unit (4 Allowed). Can use armor up to Leather. Can use any ranged weapons.

As you can see, Snipers are fancy name for FFH default Crossbowmen. I find it somewhat strange that Crossbowmen are National Units, because crossbow is very available and easy-to-learn weapon. It was common sight, and it definitely wasn't some sort of "elite" weapon. I also somewhat nerfed Snipers raw power, because 9/13 plus arquebus 100% bonus would be ridiculous. It is probably ridiculous even now, though.
Two kinds of cheaper offensive specialists also could be trained. These are historical-friendly crossbowmen and arquebusiers. These guys aren't some kind of sissy city defenders. They go on offence with melee army.

Crossbowman: 4 strength, 1 move. +20% chance to do 10% damage to units attacking this unit's stack. Can use armor up to Mail. Always use crossbow.
Arquebusier: 5 strength, 1 move. +30% to do 15% damage to units attacking this unit's stack. Can use armor up to Mail. Always use arquebus.

To be honest, I don't really understand how is that walls don't offer any protection against primitive gunpowder weaponry. Tell that to all these people who continued to build heavily protected fortresses up to XX century. Probably game balance, though I'd used special city-sieging mortar squads. Oh, and right now I will add them as suggestion. If they are in game, then arquebus should lose its' wall breaking ability, and probably should be nerfed somewhat in raw power.

Mortar squad: 5 strength, 1 move. +100% City Attack. Can use armor up to Mail. +1 first strike chance; +200% against animals; ignores shields; lowers enemy armor on 2 levels; ignores city defense. Can obtain Barrage I promotion, but no more than that, and not initially.

Now I have to say something about flanking promotion for mounted units. Right now it allows you to escape if you are losing, which is somewhat cool. But real power of flanking should be... ignore of formation and defense bonuses. Pikemen aren't THAT lethal to heavy cavalry. Even in case of frontal charge, true gen'd'armes tend to overthrow pikemen. In case of flank attack, cavalry triumphs.
I propose to rename current "Flanking" promotion into something like "Recon Attack". And this is what I feel Flanking should be.

Flanking I: Ignores formation. Spear/pike bonus still applies.
Flanking II: Ignores formation and spear/pike bonuses, except additional defense of pikes. 1 First strike.
Flanking III: Ignores formation and spear/pike bonuses completely. Guaranteed first round win. 1 First strike.

And another nice mounted promotion line: "charge." We need something against these pesky archers.

Charge I: shielded; +20% against ranged; 20% chance to attack random ranged defender instead of the one best available.
Charge II: shielded; +40% against ranged, 40% chance to attack random ranged defender instead of the one best available.
Charge III: shielded; +60% against ranged, 60% chance to attack random ranged defender instead of the one best available.


Phew. It went longer than I initially thought it will be. I am not great in number-crunching and balancing, but I think these numbers are somewhat realistical. If something here breaks balance badly, it should be toned down, of course.

Hope someone more productive than me will be able to use this feedback to create something good.

And to be honest, I couldn't care less about graphics. I mean that it isn't necessary to model each and any combination of race-specific unit, weapons and armor. Half-naked standard axemen model works fine with me as plate-armored footmen with pikes, if promotions are easy to spot on mouseover. Though of course, if it is possible to model all of that crazy goodness &#8212; that's just perfect. If it goes in game, of course, what I am in doubt of.
 
Formation is definitely most important thing in melee warfare. .

Not so. Technically, it isn't melee combat until the formations have broken and the battle lines mix.
 
I said "melee warfare", not "melee combat". One of main tactical objectives of "melee warfare" is not to drop to simplistic melee combat.

When battle lines are broken, battle becomes chaotic. Things as luck, personal physical abilities of combatants, luck, fencing skills, morale, luck, equipment, luck and luck define outcome instead of tactics. Did I mentioned luck?

Formation vs. mish-mash of melee fighters without formation = formation wins.
Breaking of formation = failure, loss of very powerful instrument.
Formation vs. formation => breaking of one formation => another formation wins.

Power of formations is tested by everyone. From Alexander the Great to yours truly. In general it works exactly this way, formation (when everyone knows what to do) destroys these who fight without it. Of course, there are cases when something goes wrong, but we all know that this happens: :spear:
 
While true that formations are an important part of warfare, I believe that the current civ experience points are supposed to be what represents this. For example, taking combat 1 shows that the men in the unit are developing some basic idea of how to work together. As they work together better, they form a more effective fighting force. Similarly, drill shows how they have drilled together and know how to fight as a unit to get that first strike in. The anti-melee promotion shows that they have worked together to learn how best to combat other melee opponents.

All these things go together to show how a unit works with themselves. Because of the way the civ engine handles these things, we are kinda limited that we can't show how a balanced fighting force will consist of heavy infantry, pikes, cavalry, and archers, but instead have to show those individual units.

Now, if you want to look at an example, we can look at the legions of rome. When rome started out, it was actually a distant greek city state. However, the traditional methods of fighting in greece (wall of spears, aka, hopilite), weren't effective on the native terrain and against the opponents that they were fighting. Gradually, through fighting the natives, they developed a method of fighting using shortswords and large shields. An example of this is in civ (specifically, I'm looking at orbis here), is going from a primarily spearman based army to a swordsman based army. However, as both were primarily militia based armies, neither really had any great advantage over the other. It wasn't until the marian reforms when the legions were formed into a permanent standing army that the legion really became great. This would be similar to putting experience boosters into your cities (the wonder that gives +2 xp, following apprenticeship, conquest, etc.). Instead of having a legion, coming out a strength 4, it would be a legion coming out at strength 4 +x xp. Now, a swordsman with combat 1 and shock is always going to beat a spearman with with no xp, which would be a similar situation to the greeks vs. the romans at this point in time. On a similar note, when the legions were first created, they weren't the end all be all of the time. They were a professional fighting force, but that wasn't everything. What made them dangerous is after they had begun their conquest. Similarly, in civ, it works much the same as you took your combat 2 swordsman out, leveled him up against some barbarians and got him to combat 5. Then you took this 1 combat 5 swordsman, + a bunch of other combat 2 swordsmen, and attacked someone with them. You loose some swordsmen, but the whole group comes out with more xp than it started with, and fighting against the unpromoted units of your opponent, the greater discipline (xp) is what won you that fight.

-Colin
 
Yes, it could be simulated with promotions. The problem is that you don't want the promotion "Sword" on your unit "Axman" - it would get a little... odd. Basically, you would have to make the promotions change the unitart - something that is already done with the racial promotions, but we'd first have to make the unitart for something like a dwarven swordsman, or a svaltar axman...

-Colin

I still don't see the point of over complicating building and selecting your melee units. Also what about the Computer? How much would that suck now that the AI could be one "promotion" away from turning their units into cannon fodder because they choose to build macemen against your dread hordes of SPEAR.

See, this is why I like tabletop games like Warhammer Battle where the units have hand weapons which includes swords, axes, maces, any weapon that can be used in one hand comfortably. Nothing complicated and the armies weaponry varies enough to be interesting. I don't think every flavor item also needs to contribute to gameplay mechanics. Let some civs have swordsmen, others axemen but still the same basic unit.
 
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