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Suggestion: Get rid of accidental nuclear meltdowns and resource removals from certian buildings.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by raxo2222, Jul 15, 2017.

  1. Little Abigail

    Little Abigail Chieftain

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    And Chernobyl was a conglomeration of literally all the worst possible scenarios happening at once on top of mind boggling stupidity, lack of understanding, funding, and care about the real effects of a nuclear meltdown.

    It's literally impossible for any plants made after Chernobyl to be even as remotely as damaging because, believe it or not, we are capable of learning from major disasters. The number of meltdowns compared to the number of nuclear plants in existence that have been running perfectly fine for decades state that nuclear is very safe. Especially seeing as things like Fukushima were caused by not one, but two major natural disaster back to back. Hard to build something to withstand that.

    Yeah, Thorium would be a lot better but what we have isn't this super dangerous thing that's going to kill us all like some people would have you believe (pro tip: most of the loudest voices that say this are firmly in the pocket of fossil fuel companies).

    Also, as was said, if you keep the meltdown for the nuclear plants then you might as well add similar things to half of the other major buildings because them going absolute worst possible scenarios would be every bit as damaging if not more.

    I will also echo that the space solar microwave causing massive destruction is just silly and should most definitely be removed.
     
  2. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Just like the Titanic, there is no unsinkable ship. We should never become so arrogant as to trust the fallibility of mankind with the risk of the kind of damage that these plants promise to eventually find a way to create someday. Just how arrogant can we be to ever say:
    It doesn't matter. Because in the real world, we can't 'scrub' fallout. No.. in the real world the land becomes useless and lost and becomes the most corrupting and damaging ripple in our bionosphere imaginable for an un-imaginable amount of time. So many generations will suffer this and it's not only harming humanity but the animals as well, and in that the harm spreads further. Even one of these accidents is completely unacceptable, and we've had 2 now and a third 'near' meltdown and while we build them better, they do break down and we know how great capitalists are at caring to maintain things properly and letting that expense cut into the bottom line. They do erode and risks that weren't there when we built them begin to emerge. And we may not have any idea how much we have yet to see coming from 'natural disasters'. Our bar of expectation as to what such disasters are generally limited to in their range and scope is likely nowhere near what we'll see in some future events that could be perhaps recovered from with the exception of every region where the reactions in progress were torn apart and openly exposed as a result of those disasters. This will add incredible pain to those trying to pull things back together after such disasters and could be the straw that breaks the back of what was once a super power.

    Yeah... I'm 100% against nuclear energy. It only seems better than other more polluting methods. Thing is, we don't need any of the above now that the technology has proven to exist and be extensively capable of providing for all needs to work with completely renewable energy generation sources alone. There's no further need for taking these risks and they should be replaced as quickly as possible before another major disaster strikes. I'm quite convinced that we are not being given 5% of the story of the real damage impact from Fukushima because being so diffused, it will take a long time to manifest in full. But it will.

    As for the other game points, we obviously do need to create a more extensive disaster engine for varying messages and effects at some point.
     
  3. tmv

    tmv Chieftain

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    No, we cannot. But other life forms might have a chance: http://www.cracked.com/article_19133_6-ways-nature-cleans-up-our-messes-better-than-we-do.html

    If you don't consider reliability a need ...

    Again, we've had 2 Type 7-disasters. The first occured because safety wasn't even a consideration when building it, and the few safety measures that existed (almost by chance) were switched off after they allowed someone who had already produced a nuclear accident to be in charge, the second occured because
    • 2 major natural disasters occured simultaneously (either of them killing more people than the nuclear disaster by several orders of magnitude)
    • The reactor was built using an American design that was never planned with the much riskier Japanese environment in mind ("Tsunami" is a Japanese word for a reason)
    • The so-called electricians who were sent to the upcoming disaster site were unable to cope with the fact that the plug didn't fit into the outlet, otherwise cooling could have been switched on again
    In other words, we have ample evidence that nuclear power plants are risky when people behave like idiots. There are many, many things in our lifes that are risky if everyone involved behaves like an idiot. And dams can break (naturally or by criminal/military action), Wind Turbines shredder birds and have to be switched off in a storm (removing a big part of wind energy from the equation), Solar Panels produce DC and are still a problem in the more temperate zones (although global warming might help with that if it doesn't switch off the Gulf Stream), both of the latter examples are unreliable and require gas power plants as a support. So I think we have to decide pretty soon if removing nuclear energy or fossil fuels from the energy mix is more important (just a reminder: We release as much greenhouse gases into the atomsphere per year as was bound into fossil fuels in a million years).
     
  4. Little Abigail

    Little Abigail Chieftain

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    Not at all? Again, all plants made after Chernobyl are literally designed to not be able to meltdown that way. It's not arrogance, it's fact.

    Anyways, can we all at least agree the "meltdown" the space microwave power emitter can do is silly and really should be removed.

    At worst it would just give an increased chance of skin disease/cancer if you stand outside under it for awhile and anyone running it would long since shut it down or fix it before that.

    Same with the nuclear waste dump. It's absolutely never going to go off, it's all depleted material. I mean, sure it could leak, but so could a mines dumping site or a chemical plant and they don't cause "meltdowns".
     
  5. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    That's exactly what it's representing, a major disruptive leak. A meltdown might be a bit severe for representing that but we don't have any in-between options for an alternative right now.

    I don't know enough about the microwave power emitter to say. You're probably right enough on that account.
     
  6. Little Abigail

    Little Abigail Chieftain

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    Perhaps give the nuclear dump a bit of disease or maybe an event that does the same? I don't know what you can do via modding with that.

    As for the microwave power emitter it would 1,000% have a failsafe on it should it ever be knocked out of alignment and even if it doesn't it wouldn't be a death laser or anything. Maybe also an event for it? I don't know, I just know that a meltdown is way too much.
     
  7. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    It's really not high priority enough to address at the moment given how much we're working on now. Mind you there's recognition of some need to change the results on those to something more suitable. I'd like a radiation property for one thing.
     
  8. Rmi

    Rmi Chieftain

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    It sounds cool, but in the scope of humanity from 200000BC to far future radiation problems are very short. The moment mankind discovered it we're looking for ways to get around it, without human effort being interrupted by say WW3, cleaner power should be around the corner (speaking CIV tech offcourse). You could split the game as it were at a nuclear holocaust and make radiation an issue but that seems like a whole CIV meets Fallout game.
     
  9. Little Abigail

    Little Abigail Chieftain

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    Also, are enough things actually harmfully radioactive to make it worthwhile?
     
  10. pepper2000

    pepper2000 Chieftain

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    The Sun.

    Radioactivity could be an interesting property for space colonies. Radiation shielding to protect from solar radiation, galactic cosmic rays, x-rays when near black holes and other nasty things, and gamma rays from those high energy kugelblitz factories.
     
  11. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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  12. Little Abigail

    Little Abigail Chieftain

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    That could actually be interesting if done right. Although, when you're getting to messing around with black holes for power and such you will probably long since have had sufficient radiation shielding.
     
  13. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Chieftain

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    So meltdown on nuclear power plant stays - there are other kinds/upgrades that don't meltdown of it anyway.

    What about meltdown of utility fog/microwave powerplant?
    I think its far enough in future, that @pepper2000 may decide what to do with these buildings.

    What about removal of tobacco/alcohol/coffee acces by mormon buildings? Other religions don't block resources.
    Also there is vanilla national wonder - national park, industrial era I think - that removes access to coal.
    For mormon buildings bonus removal could be just commented out until whoever designed that will say what about it.
    As for vanilla national park that bonus removal tag can be removed - it just doesn't fit here.
     
  14. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Chieftain

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    Still some Mormon weirdos are removing access to tea, coffee and tobacco and eco weirdos are removing access to coal
    Search "<NoBonus>BONUS_" (4 hits in 2 files)
    \Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Mormon\Mormon_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (3 hits)
    Line 38: <NoBonus>BONUS_TOBACCO</NoBonus> - Mormon Cathedral
    Line 234: <NoBonus>BONUS_COFFEE</NoBonus> - Mormon Monastry
    Line 424: <NoBonus>BONUS_TEA</NoBonus> - Mormon Shrine
    \Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\XML\Buildings\NationalWonders_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (1 hit)
    Line 4912: <NoBonus>BONUS_COAL</NoBonus>
    Incomplete design is incomplete, for Mormons just comment out bonus removals.
    If Mormon was state religion, only religion in city and there would be harsh religious civic, then it would be something else.
    And for national park remove coal removal - its vanilla stuff, that is long outdated.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  15. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Meltdowns are fun even if they are not realistic. This goes back to games like Sim City where their plants would meltdown when they get old. Meltdowns basically are there to give more challenge to the game. Just as in how many more complex real life things are over simplified to make the game more fun to play.
     
  16. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Chieftain

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    I think they got nuked in some SVN revision anyway.
    Here are search results for meltdowns using notepad++
    I have latest SVN
    Weirdly there are meltdown tags in custom religion and platyping modules....
    Perhaps someone was clinging too hard to something.
    Spoiler :

    Search "<iNukeExplosionRand>" (94 hits in 23 files)
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Andean\Andean_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (2 hits)
    Line 396: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 624: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Asatru\Asatru_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (9 hits)
    Line 95: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 319: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 516: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 709: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 905: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1099: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1287: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1475: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1654: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Canaanism\Canaanism_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (4 hits)
    Line 95: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 277: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 483: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 667: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Caodai\Caodai_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (4 hits)
    Line 87: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 267: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 434: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 595: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Jainism\Jainism_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (3 hits)
    Line 97: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 306: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 489: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Mesopotamian\Mesopotamian_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (6 hits)
    Line 95: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 286: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 493: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 694: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 888: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1270: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Mormon\Mormon_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (4 hits)
    Line 94: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 289: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 478: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 662: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Ngai\Ngai_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (5 hits)
    Line 95: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 291: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 482: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 679: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1017: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Rodnovery\Rodnovery_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (3 hits)
    Line 96: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 305: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 488: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Scientology\Scientology_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (4 hits)
    Line 95: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 314: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 505: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 684: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Shaman\Shaman_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (5 hits)
    Line 95: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 280: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 472: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 883: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1067: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Std_BtS_Religions\BtS_Religions_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (13 hits)
    Line 96: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 292: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 478: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 688: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 900: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1118: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1315: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1511: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1710: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1907: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 2106: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 2306: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 2522: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Std_RoM_Religions\RoM_Religions_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (9 hits)
    Line 98: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 285: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 505: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 711: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 922: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1087: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1281: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1484: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1672: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Tengri\Tengri_C2C_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (1 hit)
    Line 98: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Tengri\Tengri_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (5 hits)
    Line 95: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 290: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 472: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 659: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 833: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Voodoo\Voodoo_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (5 hits)
    Line 95: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 280: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 498: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 682: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 864: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_Religions\Yoruba\Yoruba_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (6 hits)
    Line 95: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 286: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 477: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 656: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 880: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Line 1080: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_World_Views\Human_Sacrifice\HS_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (1 hit)
    Line 193: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Platyping\Cleopatra's Needle\CleopatraNeedle_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (1 hit)
    Line 94: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Platyping\GreatZimbabwe\GreatZimbabwe_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (1 hit)
    Line 96: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Platyping\Helsinki\Helsinki_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (1 hit)
    Line 94: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Platyping\Reichstag\Reichstag_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (1 hit)
    Line 94: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
    Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Platyping\TheMotherlandCalls\Motherland_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (1 hit)
    Line 94: <iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>

    I'm asking about bonus removals - they sound like another blunt and ugly mechanic, because we don't have better replacement.

    tl'dr MELTOWNS ARE ALREADY REMOVED and bonus removals are ugly
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  17. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Chieftain

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    I oppose. They don't add a challange; instead you learn to avoid those buildings as these events are very annoying and you have no control about them other than not buildings the buildings. In Sim City you could probably destroy and rebuild them when they get old, but in civ you really can't. Another building that would stop the building in question to meltdown would add a bit of strategy to it, but IMO it is not a good game element.
    If Meltdowns should stay (and are on quite a few buildings), then these should fall under the bad stuff happens option, as these are way to severe for normal gameplay.
     
  18. Snofru1

    Snofru1 Chieftain

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    I´m 100% with Faustmouse, meltdowns in my eyes are a big nuisance, not a challenge.

    And the bonus removal would only make sense if it came with a big reward. But it doesn´t so again these are buildings that are simply avoided and clutter the building list.
     
  19. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Chieftain

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    Meltdowns don't exist anymorein game.
    They are simply too destructive.
    Maybe if we had accident with personal antimatter powered spacecraft.......
     
  20. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Chieftain

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    What about tea/coffee/tobacco removals by Mormon buildings (custom religions module) and coal removal by vanilla National Wonder - National Park?
    For Mormon buildings it can be commented out, as for now its very out of place and for vanilla National Park it can be outright removed.
     

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