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Suggestion: GoTM with TBC

Discussion in 'Strategy Forum' started by Kevin J, May 23, 2011.

  1. Kevin J

    Kevin J Hewer of Wood

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    I would love to see a game-of-the month type thing done with Thal's mod.

    This mod is focused on balancing the game - and I think some competitive games would be awesome with the mod. As a nice side-benefit, Thal could see how his changes to the game play out as different people play through, using the various options available. Would provide good fodder for future revisions to the mod.

    Anyone else like the idea of doing Game-of-the-Month style competition using Thal's mod?
     
  2. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

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    Very much support this! I've actually been thinking of playing my own little tbc version of the vanilla HoF games, which may be a better route to go with since different people use different mods, but a GotM could work as well.

    Should we plan on doing it when Thal releases v8 of TBC? I have a feeling it's coming relatively soon, and this could give us some time to plan whatever's necessary. I'll post in the Combined thread to let people know about it.:)
     
  3. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I'm all up for whatever version we settle on!

    I don't mind the lack of replayability from a set start, which makes the results more measurable. But I am fine with a more open-ended one. I also agree it makes sense to wait for TBC v8, then make a decision on the ground rules for Game #2, depending on where the beta are then.

    As of ten years ago - my frame of reference - the GOTM provided a save with a starting civ, and varying world types and difficulty levels, but always standard size and speed. You would then play for whatever victory condition appealed to you (in those days 75% went for conquest). Those games had an elaborate scoring system based on victory condition, turn number and score. It was weighted (correctly, I believe) toward turn number. We probably won't have anything nearly as codified - or not immediately, anyway - but it seems from what Seek says that the GOTM has redefined its parameters.

    I would suggest that we limit it to TBC (and UI mods like Info Addict) to make the whole thing more relevant. Even if people normally play with other mods, it won't kill them to do without for one game a month.
     
  4. Gamewizard

    Gamewizard Emperor

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    I agree a Thal's Balanced GOTM would be fun and helpful toward improving the mod even faster. No size larger than Standard please, my computer can't handle those well. Also, I think City State Diplomacy should be up for consideration as co-mod (although I also believe it should be incorporated right into Thal's mod).
     
  5. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I think Thal has said that he likes CSD, but doesn't intend to incorporate it into TBC. In my opinion, the problems with including CSD are that not everyone uses it, and that it changes the TBC (and vanilla) games enough to make the GOTM's no longer a "test" of CSD. It also opens the door for other similarly major mods to be included, further muddying the waters.
     
  6. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    A HoF/GotM sounds like a great idea since critical balance problems (in any game) are usually highlighted fastest by competitive play. The non-beta version should be used for any such competition. I update it about once per month. :)

    I'm going to include some of the fundamentals of CSD into TBC at a later date, mainly the diplomacy units. I discussed it with Gazebo a few weeks ago but had other priorities to work on.
     
  7. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    I support the idea, and why not make two games, with CSD and without, because I personally don't use CSD (I don't like having even more civilian units, I think the workboats/workers are already two too man).
     
  8. Kevin J

    Kevin J Hewer of Wood

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    Well, I think we should start simple - we don't know how many people will be up for this - maybe save multiple maps for a later try. I'm also not sure how we'd set up multiple identical maps at different difficulties short of making a scenario for each game.

    I suppose a scenario could work, even for a randomly generated map - just manually set start locations in the world-builder to ensure consistency across versions. I think each scenario would then be the identical map, varying only in speed or difficulty.

    What's the consensus on speed/map size/difficulty for the first go? I was thinking something middle-of-the-road for both - standard/standard/king should make for a fairly accessible game for most people.

    We should also contact the moderators in the GOTM board to see if we could post up a thread there linking to a TBC GoTM organized here. And speaking of organizing it, are there any volunteers?
     
  9. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Standard/standard is probably a good permanent standard, given that some people can't handle larger maps. I'm happy to start at King - overall, the range should probably be Warlord or Prince to Emperor or Immortal.

    And I'd be happy to help organize it, once we decide what we're doing. I've played in great GOTM scenarios with Civ 3, but doubt anyone is going to design one month in and month out. Even checking out a map to make sure it's interesting (or easy, or tough) seems to preclude playing in the game. So maybe we should go with a set map that someone randomly generates and posts.

    Finally, what sort of record keeping (if any) are people interested in? High score, end turn, or a combination of both?

    Etc.
     
  10. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

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    Though I generally play on standard speed, I wouldn't be opposed to using quick or epic occasionally. TBC is best balanced for standard, I think, so like I said, only occasionally.

    Warlord-Emperor seems like a good spread; Immortal (and even Emperor) is pretty tough and may turn some people away.

    As far as maps go, it could be fun to use PerfectWorld or Tectonics once in a while. I'm a fan, though each comes with certain drawbacks that would preclude using them in every instance, but it could be fun to use them to spice it up a bit.

    I think the vanilla GotM uses a good standard for records: Turn count with score as a tie-breaker. Scoring is just too unbalanced through different playstyles now. Thal mentioned giving the scoring a once over at one point, and maybe this would be a good opportunity to convince him to do so.

    Also, I will look into how to generate saves that don't require the DLC since not everyone has them. I think they've figured it out over there, and that is certainly a necessity.
     
  11. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Sounds good, Seek.

    In thinking about the initial purpose - providing grist for Thal - I think overall comparisons become more important, so it may even be a good idea to keep it at standard/King indefinitely (even though I play Emperor).

    Something else that needs to be spelled out for the less tech savvy is how to keep the game mod version in one place and the current beta in another, without screwing up everything. My guess would be creating a folder for each, and keeping the one not in use on the desktop. In theory that would allow you to return to the GOTM repeatedly, while playing with each successive beta. Would that work?
     
  12. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I swap out versions using a "Mods - Storage" folder. :)

     

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  13. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Would we also need to swap out the cache and MUD folder?
     
  14. Gamewizard

    Gamewizard Emperor

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    Whomever creates the save game for everyone needs to manually set up AI opponents so that the DLC civs are not included.

    I think the GOTM does it well in that there is a designated Victory Condition and the quickest victory is the winner, since the scoring system is hard to understand and favors conquest by ALOT.
     
  15. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    In the old days (...) you could choose any of the victory conditions. Why limit ourselves to one?
     
  16. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

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    It makes for better comparison and analysis. If we do an Aztec game as we briefly discussed in the B-FPP thread, it would be more interesting to designate a culture victory to highlight tactics and strategies for achieving a specific VC with a specific civ which may employ different strategies than another (in this case, utilizing the Honor tree). As a example, see the conversation in the "India" thread: If we simply compared the new India with the old without any discussion of the cultural VC, I think it would've been less interesting and focused.
     
  17. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    In theory you could have the same discussion for each victory type, thus providing much more grist for the analytical mill. This is in fact the way it worked in past GOTMs. However, that approach is dependent on a large number of players for each game. We will probably have a much smaller sampling, at least for a while. Given that, I can see choosing one victory condition, rather than allowing choice in the matter.
     
  18. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I think a succession game might be more interesting than GotM.
     
  19. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

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    What are succession games? I've seen the term mentioned, but I'm not sure what it is.
     
  20. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Succession game means that a group of players play the game together where each player play in succession. ;-) Ok that was nonsense. Basically you are 5 (or more) players, Player 1 plays 10 turns and then posts the save and description of what happened. Then everybody discusses the strategy and then Player 2 plays the next ten turns. There are whole subforums for Civ4 and 3 for that kind of game...
     

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