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Suggestion: Make citadeling reversable

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by a3kov, Aug 9, 2020.

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What do you think about citadeling and the described issues/suggestion?

  1. I like the suggested change. Let's do it

    21.7%
  2. I think citadels have issues but I don't like the suggested change

    26.1%
  3. I think citadels are fine. Leave things as is.

    52.2%
  1. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    Because it's just easier to steal lands via citadels than counquring a city. This option is a middleground between taking a city with all it's tiles and not getting anything.
     
  2. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    Please add "Not in a DP with the player" as a prerequisite of placing citadels too.

    Stealing tiles from another player with a citadel should, IMO:
    • Immediately ends DoF and DP with the player
    • Counts as backstabbing if in DoF or DP with the player
    • Triggers a prompt if target is an AI with the usual options of making promise (can be same as the "don't declare war on me" one, with wording changes to notify players that placing citadel breaks that promise as well). Refusing to make such a promise gives extra diplomatic penalty that doesn't go away from warring.
    If human player's land got stolen by an AI, clicking on the notification should bring up a prompt like the spying one.
     
    CppMaster and a3kov like this.
  3. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Citadels are mostly a way to set up a tactical position, I don't want this to be changed tbh. There already is a heavy Diplo penalty, I don't see why citadeling needs to force war. It requires expending a Great General, and there is a significant difference between taking cities and a few tiles.
     
  4. a3kov

    a3kov Warlord

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    Exactly, it's extremely easy. And why it should be allowed during peace time ? With my example of a neighbor stealing my farms, people argued it wasn't to annoy me, but to gain strategic advantage. Ok, why he can't place these strategic citadels during war ? If it's a military tool, it must be done during war period. But what happened instead, he was too weak to declare war after I got military tech advantage, so he just abused this peaceful ability and did not declare for the rest of the game.

    +1, I really like this suggestion.

    Does it mean that even if I have strong military they will still citadel me ? Strong enough for GUARDED but not strong enough for AFRAID. I understand that military strength can be a factor of gaining FRIENDLY status depending on AI personality, but if they don't like me for other reasons, even with my strong military they will be GUARDED. Is it correct ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
    Rhys DeAnno likes this.
  5. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    As someone who is on the books as wanting to go a bit further than most of the community in reeling in DPs, I don't think this is the way. If DPs are fixed and smaller, being able to use your ally to scare the person you bully should be a viable tactic IMO. I think bypassing it is going a bit too far, and is the wrong place to try to solve the issue.
     
  6. a3kov

    a3kov Warlord

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    The spirit of DP is to avoid wars, not to provoke them. If your DP partner is doing dirty stuff that can annoy his neighbors, you should question the value of DP cause in that case he is more likely to drag you into a war then the other way around. That's why provocative actions should be limited in a DP.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  7. InkAxis

    InkAxis Warlord

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    I think DPs should be used as a tactic to stop warmongers and runaways (that's why they're called "defensive"), and to create blocs for world wars. They shouldn't allow endless bullying (that's why they're not called "offensive"), and anyway, why bring another civ into a conflict from a small local problem?

    Way, way, way too much dude. I wouldn't take away literally all diplomacy for just taking some tiles lol.
     
  8. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    All diplomacy? It only affects the bully and the victim. (Globally if you break the promise I guess)
     
  9. a3kov

    a3kov Warlord

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    In my current OP Maya game I declared on Hiawatha to get my land back. My army is far ahead in tech so I can capture his cities without major resistance.
    Another neighbor Austria citadeling me, despite me having Tanks and them only Fusiliers. Of course I'm only 7th military, that's the reason they are GUARDED and not AFRAID.
    I think the game currently underestimates tech advantage. When your army is 2 eras ahead you can beat any army size, because 1upt won't allow them to concentrate all units together.

    Soo....all the people who said I should have bigger army to prevent citadeling are wrong. Not only is my army strong enough to defend, it's enough to conquer neighbors. Yet my other neighbor is only GUARDED and continuing citadeling me. Yes, if I build an army so huge that all neighbors will be AFRAID, maybe it will make a difference, but that argument is just proving my point - if you have a huge army then you are essentially a warmonger. So warmongering is an answer to citadeling currently, it's true, but there's no answer for a peaceful defensive player
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2020
    Bromar1 likes this.
  10. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    There's no peaceful counter to another AI settling in a city position that I want either...
     
  11. a3kov

    a3kov Warlord

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    Your counter is settling first. All players have equal access to settlers (with the exception of AI bonuses) but only warmongers have access to mass citadels.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.

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