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Suggestion: make education autobuildings influence air/water pollution

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by raxo2222, Jul 18, 2017.

  1. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    That is highly educated citizens will try to clean stuff after them.

    Low education would cause additonal pollution.
     
  2. tmv

    tmv Chieftain

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    Not with slavery active.
     
  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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  4. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Now that V38 is out I'll bump that suggestion.

    Air/Water pollution modifiers would be same as crime/disease modifiers.

    Are current crime/disease modifiers from education pseudobuildings detectable?
    -91 or +91 to disease by Transcendent era or around quarter of that by Industrial/Modern era aren't really that much.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  5. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    By what?
    I kinda disagree but I'm not 100% sure of that at the moment.
     
  6. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    By current balance - that is for now it can be easily overridden by building several buildings or units.

    I added cumulative crime/disease and eras to your Education chart.
    No idea if function names are autotranslated though...
    For example in Modern era max crime/disease reduction/gain is -28.
    Couple units with max promotions and buildups are easily capable of that.
     
  7. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I still have no idea what you're asking.
    It's intended to be a minor influence but if we want a stronger influence we should switch to a per population basis for the modifiers.
     
  8. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    I meant, that their influence on other properties is very small and easily overshadowed by other stuff.

    We could try first in 0.1 steps.
    First step would be +-0.1 per pop - in 100 pop city it would change properties by +-10, originally was +-1 regardless population
    Last step would result in cumulative modifier of +- 1.3 per pop - in 100 pop city it would change properties by +-130, originally was +-91 regardless population.
     
  9. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    They do carry a noticeable impact. Let's consider adjusting them once we've adjusted the unit property control base values and see how those pan out.
     
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  10. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Originally thread was about adding water/air pollution modifiers to education pseudobuildings.
    Can be those added? They would be influenced by same values as crime and disease.
     
  11. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I'm not sure it's an appropriate thing to add to education. And we should probably work on improving the overall flow of game balance with water and air pollution before we try to expand on how many places it is modified. Consider that we don't have a lot of strong property control with units on those factors, so imbalances are quickly going to manifest as more severe.

    If Joseph wants to add some to education, I'll support it provided it's very subtle. Maybe even better indirect - such as - we use this building and if our education sucks then we let it become a problem with pollution but if our education is ok or good then we don't. Possibly more of that kind of thing. Well educated or poorly educated individuals probably don't contribute too much to pollution or its control without having a MEANS to do so.
     
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  12. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    Citizens would affect pollution indirectly - in Cities Skylines better educated people produce less garbage and use less water and electricity.

    I guess steps could be done every two education levels:
    1/1/2/2/3/3/4/4/5/5/6/6/7
    Max cumulative effect would be +-49 units in that case.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  13. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    But with other projects, that indirect effect can be shown more directly eventually. Such as through the power property design project. I want fresh water to be a property as well someday. For now, if Joseph accepts your proposal, I wouldn't be against it but we should just remember that we're detailing an indirect effect that should eventually be made more explicit and direct.
     
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  14. Whisperr

    Whisperr Chieftain

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    Not quite sure where you come up with this.

    Electricity:
    Educated people earn more money so more likely to have larger homes which use more electricity.
    Less educated may not be able to afford electricity, or may have to really watch their usage of it so they will use a lot less.

    Water:
    Educated are more likely to live in houses as opposed to apartments so they will then have large yards to maintain which require a lot water.

    Garbage:
    As for garbage, the only difference I can find is educated might use less processed food so less packaging.

    Overall, better educated people make more money, so less concerned with the expense of electricity, water and garbage disposal.
     
  15. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Early game population and early eras pollutions from buildings and pop is too strong for these points of time in human development from the mod.

    Of course the original Mod design was to go to Modern Era only and have Future Era as a "let me play one more turn" thing. That of course has all changed.

    But the massive amounts of pollution were not. Before the freeze and in the last stages of finishing up pre v38 I started to reduce/adjust the buildings that had outrageous amounts of Pollution. The Most famous was the Smokehouse that originally gave +20 Air pollution. It does not anymore.

    As the Eras progress then the pollutions given from buildings continued to build with out much in the way of having any counter force. Except if you built Hydro's various specialty farms and orchards that give a -1 AirP Many players totally neglect these buildings as superfluous. The cry "too many :gold: giving junk buildings" is what you get from them. But by the time you hit late Ren Era the Water and Air is now getting much higher and harder to counter. By Industrial Era it really ramps up again with not much in the way of any counter buildings ( a mirror of the times in fact). And then the Factories hit and the need for Factory chains. This is when a neglected pollution system from the player can turn and bite them as the big Pollution event buildings kick in.

    The AI is/was/still sort of is at the mercy of these events. And was a part of the Mod collapse we saw starting with SO's savegame submission of last fall. Where the AI cities were All shrinking and stagnating at 1 pop. Crime was a major factor here as well and it got the lions share of attention. Disease was a non factor in game play by this time. Until I added teeth to each Disease by reductions in negative % to :food::hammers::gold:.

    So now Air and Water from buildings needs to be further reviewed and adjusted accordingly. The use of multipliers applied from pop for pollutions is not prudent imho atm. And in fact may never be needed. Only once the review is over and buildings adjusted by era will the need be able to be clearly seen. As Pollution is a middle to late game event in the span of human development and involvement with and on this planet in relation to the Mods play.

    So from my standpoint, this proposal is premature and may actually be unnecessary extra involvement to game play. We can, we have, and we do get overly complicated at times, when a more simple system will work just fine. Or a simpler readjustment of what we already have.
     
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  16. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I can agree that starting simple with a restructuring of pollution accumulation is smart. Then gradually apply more complex factors. Obviously population should at some point be a major direct influence, though Whisperr makes a good point that education really shouldn't have anything to do with it imo. Possibly the garbage civics could interact with population based impacts. I just think we need to be gentle with applying sources of pollution and very thoughtful as to what would and what would not have an effect and apply what would and keep it to as direct sources as possible to be realistic.
     
  17. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    So basically increased income and consumption from increased education exactly cancel increased ecological awareness and potential pollution reduction from increased education?
    That is for example you have 2x more efficient cars, but you drive 2x more too :p
    Or you waste less water and use more of it in equal proportion.
    Or waste less electricity with ecofriendly appliances, but your increase in electricity consumption is equal to these savings.

    I guess some effects allows for education to not influence pollution levels after all.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  18. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Furthermore, what you may deem 'education' from today's perspective, doesn't necessarily mean educated from yesteryear's perspective. Before ecological sciences were developed, to be educated would not have included such awareness that would've influenced a person. And knowing what is responsible doesn't equate to choosing to act responsibly either.
     
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