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Suggestion: new unit Military Convoy

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by CptBadger, Feb 1, 2020.

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  1. CptBadger

    CptBadger Chieftain

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    I've been thinking about the fact that we have land transport units that can transport combat units, but can/will be killed in a wolf attack, let alone native raid or European combat.

    I was thinking of having a land transport with a strength of around 7-8 (in current proportions) call it something like a military convoy or armed transport. That way it could still be killed by a couple of attacks by natives, or strong European unit.

    Maybe graphic could just be a recolored Carriage escorted by dragoon?

    My idea for stats/requirements below

    Strength 8
    Movement 3
    Cargo 4
    Can only defend
    Requirements (at normal speed)
    50 horses
    50 guns
    50 blades
    50 sailcloth
    50 tools
    200 hammers

    Also requires Great Wheelwrights Workshop, and if multiple building requirements is do-able, Arsenal.

    The materials and building requirement would make it mid- to late-game, but I've lost too many stagecoaches and carriages to a stray brave carrying multiple hessians or line infantry. That's kinda dumb.
    You cant tell me that several elite military units couldn't stave off a stray brave because they were in wagons.
     
  2. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Well, we simply inherited a lot of "Vanilla code" and until now nobody had complained about this specific issue.:dunno:
    Not everything that is in WTP was programmed by us purposely.

    But hat seems to be the actual problem / root cause.
    A new "Wagon Type" will not necessarily solve this.

    Maybe we would simply need to have all Units (except goods) exit the Wagon (or any other land transport), once it is attacked / destroyed.
    Then these Units would not be killed automatically.

    Well, we simply inherited a lot of "Vanilla code" and until now nobody had complained about this specific issue.
     
  3. CptBadger

    CptBadger Chieftain

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    That, too, would work, though I like my idea as well lol. An armed convoy could carry valuable cargo and protect it better. Historically speaking, is realistic. And a carriage (strength 2) probably wouldnt be destroyed at all if it had a line infantry in it (strength 10) and was attacked by a brave (strength 5).

    So I like the idea of having units exit upon/prior to attack, so that /they/defend the tile instead of transport instantly dying.

    And I'd still love to see if anyone else likes the idea of the unit, or would care to implement.
     
  4. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    It whould especially work for AI as well.
    Your idea would probably not be used by AI since it is not that smart.

    Of course, I like my own ideas as well. :lol:

    Never said that it would not be. :thumbsup:

    Would probably be relatively easy to do. :)
    Every one of us programmers could do it if we all agree to it.

    I don't mind at all if anybody in the team would create it. :)

    But currently the only team member who could do it is Schmiddie, so basically it is his decision for me if he wants it or not.
    But the other team members need to give their opinion as well.
     
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  5. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    One thing, which should be added here is that you can make groups of units. If you take a wagon train and put it together with say dragoons, then they will move around as one unit, the wagon train will transport stuff while the dragoons will do the combat if attacked. At least that is how it is supposed to work.

    One issue I have with this is that it's too easy to break up a group by accident by clicking on it. Maybe we should have a better group interface to make it more clear which units are grouped together and can only be split if the player explicitly click some ungroup button.
     
    rah and OzzyKP like this.
  6. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    I totally agree with Nightinggale - wagons/convoys are weak units and require further military units as guards when outside colonies. This is the challenge. Therefore to my view a further unit / armed wagon train is not required ingame. We already have so many units. To my view the defensive strength of the military convoy we already have could be increased a little bit to simulate that there are some guards on the wagons.

    Of course it would be possible to build such graphics and animations but I'm currently not interested to do this work - it is very detailed work required to build such NEW animation, it would cost me weeks that I do not have.
     
  7. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Prince Supporter

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    I dislike the idea. It sounds as if you want an armoured railroad car moving over land which would be something for after the late game or at least required to move only on the highest quality of roads.

    Military units on a transport, regardless if stage coach or conestoga are naturally more valuable to an attack than when deployed. They are practically blind to the surroundings, the noise of the wagon and the horses will be louder than some natives moving alongside - so it does make sense to allow enemy units to ambush the wagons while moving and gaining a surprise attack on the "cargo". Especially that the e.g. Hessians in the transport in the age of gunpowder (you don’t carry a loaded weapon on a transport from e.g. New England to the Rockies) would be much slower to react than nowaday soldiers and be at a disadvantage if fighting in dense forests where they can’t use their usual formations.

    So yes, if a player puts many valuable eggs in one basket to gain the advantage of the much higher speed compared to moving on foot, then have him suffer the loss of that unit if attacked on that transport - especially if he moved the transport over a long distance through an area where enemy units roam...
    IIf you do not want that, then have a military unit accompany and protect the wagon/stage coach, just like one would protect a found treasure that limps home one square after another. Or have at least on of the military units exit the wagon each turn for protection.
     
  8. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    So ok, as I understand this is the current status:

    - Adding another Transport Unit --> Cancelled
    - Ejecting all Land Units when Land Transport is attacked / destroyed --> ???
    - Improvement of "Splitting up Groups" by adding a separate Button --> Sounds good :thumbsup:
     
  9. devolution

    devolution Prince

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    The obvious solution to this issue to improve the escorting behavior of the AI and to expose the automation to the (human) player as well.
     
  10. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Sounds good as well. :thumbsup:

    But that does not contradict those suggestions. :)

    Should we not do all 3 things? :think:

    1) AI Improvement for escorting
    2) Improvement of UI for Splitting Groups
    3) Ejecting Units if Land Transport is destroyed
     
  11. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Prince Supporter

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    So that military units benefit from the speed of the wagon while moving and are immediately able to defend with their own defence if an attack happens?
    I’m not sure about that. Yes, the turns are a long time when each turn is a year (or a season if more than 300 turns) but if someone sends a wagon with a valuable cargo out there into the wilderness unescorted then that should be punished (with the speed of a wagon,roads built by pioneers and the ability to build forts in the area between cities it is possible to have a wagon travel safely - or outside the civilized area escorted) and if a wagon (rather a wagon train to hold several infantery companies...) is attacked in the wilderness then the passengers should suffer too when the wagon is destroyed in which they travelled comfortably.

    Take ships for comparison: If you sink a ship, do the transported land units on board get a chance to defend themselfves when the transport is destroyed?
     
  12. devolution

    devolution Prince

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    If we allow the ejection of units from a dying transport , should we then evacuate cities upon being razed as well to be consistent ?
     
  13. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Well ok, I am convinced. :thumbsup:

    "Ejecting Units from dying land transport" would only reduce challenge anyways - which I do not really like.
    It is better to simply have them protected as already stated.

    Personally never had a problem with it anyways.
    (Simply because I never have military Units in Land Transports.)
     
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  14. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I still like these 2 though. :)
    (But they are unrelated to the oringial request.)

     
  15. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    If we do something about it, I would prefer it to be a complete and consistent system. Some brainstorming on what such a system should contain.

    • Let's assign a name to a group of units. Convoy will do for now.
    • If you click "form convoy", the units will act as a single unit on the map and only split if you click "split convoy", making it clear to the player when units have "merged" or not.
    • Works for all units, meaning you can protect your fishing ships.
    • Doesn't split in Europe meaning you can keep your early game ship(s) and put them together with say a frigate or brigantine for protection into late game.

    I like this. It makes the concept of convoys reliably enough to actually use it and rely on it for protection of weak units, which will then be more useful even in late game. The question is how to implement it without way too much work.
     
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  16. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I prefer the convoy option. I usually did it manually but they get split up too easily an then you lose track sometimes.
    As long as the escort can move as fast the transport, you should be fine. But if it slowed down the transport, I wouldn't complain that much.
     

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