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Suggestion: Planter mechanics for resource dissemination (plantations and orchard) in DoC 1.17

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Cacaso, Apr 13, 2020.

  1. Cacaso

    Cacaso Chieftain

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    My idea is to create a new unit, the "planter" so that it can actively and non-passively disseminate resources such as coffee, orange, sugar, tobacco, cotton, banana, rubber, cocoa, tea and silk. Since these resources simply appear in a non-historical way in locations where they are not native, you simply found the cities and wait for the spawn. So in order to create this unit, a civilization would have to found a city in a location with the in range resource (usually in asia / africa, build the planter, and then transport that unit to a tile with a "good soil for coffee growing" feature ", and then the planter switches to the coffee resource itself.

    If civilization did not have a city with a native coffee resource, it could use espionage on a coffee plantation tile from another civilization to steal its production technique and allow the creation of the "coffee planter" in the capital or if the civilization had friendly relations with the local civilization that owns the resource a unit explorer could go to the resource, perform a learning mission during some turns, win a promotion (it would be only 1 per explorer) and when that unit returned to the capital it was replaced by a planter (we could use the units of CIV4 Colonization), this would give us another way beyond espionage or founding a city close to the resource

    The planter would be a national unit, you could only produce the unit or carry out espionage, if you have a city with at least one tile with the resource "good soil for growing coffee" in your empire.

    The "good soil for coffee cultivation" tile would only be revealed if viewed by a caravel / explorer earlier or within the cultural radius later. This would make an interesting synergy with the search engine for natural wonders if it were adopted, valuing the explorer unit, making it interesting to explore america and africa with the explorer.

    The spawn dates for the "good soil for growing coffee" tiles would be chosen individually for each region or for each resource.

    Coffee: Ethiopia and sawali coast will be the native areas for the first 5 resources,
    at 1301 spawn 1 coffe in yemen,
    in 1475 spawn "good soil for growing coffee" in turkey,
    in 1574 spawn "good soil for growing coffee" in Mecca and Cairo (to represent Arab dominance in this market),
    in 1700 spawn "good soil for coffee cultivation" in Suriname and despawn in Turkey Mecca and Cairo (this despawn may coincide with the fall of arabia),
    in 1706 spawn "good soil for coffee cultivation" in sumatra,
    in 1748 spawn "good soil for growing coffee" in cuba
    in 1774; 1794; 1820 "good soil for growing coffee" in Rio de Janeiro; São Paulo; Sao Paulo,
    in 1835 spawn 3 "good soil for growing coffee" in Colombia,
    in 1850 spawn "good soil for growing coffee" in vietnam

    Orange / citrus: the 7 resources in China, Myamar and India will be the native resources, they spawn in 2500BC (I see this exaggerated number, maybe start at 3 and go to spawn the other 4 later),
    in 100 spawn 1 orange in Jerusalem and 2 "good soil for growing orange" in turkey and egypt,
    in 1000 spawn "good soil for growing orange" in sicily,
    in 1200 spawn "good soil for growing orange" in valencia seville and morocco,
    in 1493 spawn "good soil for orange cultivation" in the Dominican republic,
    in 1516 1518 1530 spawn "good soil for orange cultivation" in panama mexico and são paulo,
    in 1700 spawn "good soil for orange cultivation" in argentina angola zimbabwe south africa (i did not find date information),
    in 1800 spawn "good soil for growing orange" in california and florida

    Sugar: India's 3 sugar resources will be the native area,
    at 400 spawn sugar in Fiji island and indonesia,
    at 606 spawn sugar in china,
    in 647 spawn "good soil for growing sugar" in china and taiwan,
    at 800 spawn 2 sugar in thailand,
    in 1100 spawn sugar in east africa,
    in 1100 spawn "good soil for growing sugar" in Zinbabwe and south africa,
    in 1400 spawn sugar in azores,
    in 1500 spawn 2 "good soil for growing sugar" in philippines (date just to coincide with European maritime expansion),
    in 1500 spawn "good soil for growing sugar" in hispaniola
    in 1534 spawn 2 "good soil for growing sugar" in northeast brazil,
    in 1640 spawn 3 "good soil for growing sugar" in caribbean, caribbean and guiana (this could be related to a Dutch UHV, the capture of northeastern Brazil and the transfer of plantations to the West Indies)
    in 1654 despawn 2 sugar in northeast brazil,
    in 1700 spawn 3 "good soil for growing sugar" in brazil, inner brazil, northeast brazil
    in 1850 spawn "good soil for growing sugar" in hawai

    Rubber: the 8 resources in america will be the native area,
    in 1875 spawn "good soil for growing rubber" in Malaysia, Sri lanka, thailand, indonesia, liberia, ivory coast, nigeria, Cameroon and 2 in congo.(some are great modern producers)

    Tabacco: 1 tabacco in cuba and 2 in middle USA will be native area,
    in 1585 spawn 2 "good soil for tabacco cultivation" in east coast usa,
    in 1600 spawn "good soil for tabacco cultivation" in venezuela,
    in 1674 spawn 2 tabacco in brazil,
    in 1700 spawn "good soil for tabacco cultivation" in malawi,
    in 1700 spawn "good soil for tabacco cultivation" in turkey,
    in 1700 spawn "good soil for tabacco cultivation" in china

    Cotton: as this is a crop very dispersed in the globe, there will be several native areas, 1 cotton in Inca, Maya, Sawali coast, Pakistan, India; 2 cotton in egypt, mongolia; 3 in Turkmenistan
    I suggest the spawn of 1 cotton in bangladesh and peninsula arab (due to the expressive fabric industry / the name "al-qotom" comes from arab)
    in 1100 cotton spawn in congo,
    in 1600 spawn "good soil for growing cotton" in florida, Louisiana, california and Louisiana,
    in 1760 spawn "good soil for growing cotton" in belém-brasil,

    Banana: the 5 resources in australia and indonesia will be the native areas,
    in 327 spawn "good soil for growing banana" in india,
    in 400 spawn "good soil for growing banana" in china
    in 1100 spawn 2 "good soil for growing banana" in central africa,
    in 1500 spawn "good soil for growing banana" in ecuador,
    in 1600 spawn "good soil for growing banana" in guatemala, colombia, brazil and brazil,
    in 1800 spawn "good soil for growing banana" in brasilia,
    in 1850 spawn "good soil for growing banana" in hawai

    Cocoa: the 8 resources in the amazon and central america will be the native area.
    I suggest the spawn of 1 more native resource near Porto Velho due to the lack of resources in the Midwest area of Brazil
    in 1655 spawn "good soil for growing cocoa" in salvador brazil,
    in 1700 spawn "good soil for growing cocoa" in hispaniola, java, clebes,
    in 1850 spawn 4 "good soil for growing cocoa" in ivory coast, ghana, nigeria and Cameroon

    Tea: the 4 resources in china and 2 in south america (yerba mate) will be the native areas,
    in 525 spawn "good soil for growing tea" in japan
    in 800 spawn "good soil for growing tea" in myiamar,
    in 1000 spawn 2 "good soil for growing tea" in india
    in 1600 spawn "good soil for growing tea" in indonesia,
    in 1700 spawn "good soil for growing tea" in west bengal,

    Silk: the 5 resources in china will be native area
    (the only way to get the silk planter is to spy)
    in 300 spawn "good soil for growing silk" in Korea, japan, vietnam, indonesia,

    this mechanic would be interesting to emulate historical events like Europeans bringing Asian cultures, until then exotic, to the colonies in America, Holland capturing the Brazilian sugar northeast and leading the cultivation technique to the West Indies, as well as espionage related to these themes like the English taking rubber trees from brazil to asia, and the theft of silkworms from china. this would add value to the exploration as well.

    ideas related to pests that have affected crops such as potatoes in Ireland (so one idea would be that the resource is back to "good soil for growing potatoes" and with that you have to use a planter to recover the resource)

    please make comments if you liked it, if you find it viable, it is just an initial idea and can be improved
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2020
  2. Force44

    Force44 Prince

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    The spawndates for fertable soil coincide with increasing markets for the product. Perhaps this could even be (partially) untied from the turn in the game. Eg. a set number of completed buildings utilizing the resource trigger the discovery of fertile soil for said resource on an egligable plot in your empire.
     
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  3. Enyavar

    Enyavar Prince

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    So you need more coffee houses in your cities for an increased chance of coffee resources to spawn? Except that players won't build coffee houses if they don't have coffee resources?

    (sure, this is a bit simplified)

    Also, what's wrong with the "suggestions and requests" thread?
     
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  4. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    I imagine it'd be like having corporations spread to cities. The presence of particular buildings would increase the chance of it spreading, alongside whether it's in Coffee's Core/Historical Zone, the tile type, etc.
     
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  5. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    For a long time I've wanted a system that would allow civs to control resource expansion, I think this is a really interesting part of history that we can include in a more active way in the mod. I'd go so far as to propose that this is applied to all agricultural resources (food, fibers, meat, etc) and only fishing boat, hunting camp, quarry, and mine resources would remain with the current system, but if it can't (or shouldn't) be applied so generally then at least for health and happiness oriented resources this would be nice.

    Here's an idea of how it could work.
    - The map starts with resources in their original spawn locations, where they were originally domesticated. These resources become available with the adequate improvements and techs, as today, to the civs owning that territory.
    - Other civilizations can send Great Merchant, Great Scientist, or Great Spy to a location in the map where the resource is improved, and perform an action "import resource". The requirement is for the importing civ to also have the required technology to improve the resource. The action consumes the great person, but the resource becomes available to the importing civ.
    - We define further terrain types (not graphically, just for the sake of what they can grow) based on their climate so that, for example, some grasslands are actually "tropical grasslands" and a certain list of commodities is tied to them. For example, coffee and rubber. As another example, some plains are actually "mediterranean shrublands" and they accept wine, olives, citrus. A commodity can be linked to more than one terrain type.
    - Workers from the importing civ can now take an action "disseminate X resource" when they are in a suitable terrain in their civ's territory. This adds an improved resource of type X.

    What would be also interesting is if economies of scale could also be integrated in some way. For example, additional copies of the same resource, in the same region, could be take less turns to build, or alternatively a city's buildings could yield additional gold from multiple copies of the same resource in their city radius. This would encourage civs to geographically specialize their commodity production and then either seek to trade with other civs to get other commodities (like the Dutch) or seek to expand all over the world to secure multiple resource types (like the English).
     
  6. Force44

    Force44 Prince

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    I also like this idea lot. With the small caveat that the amount of great people generated would have to increase drastically to account for a distribution of resources comparable to the current one. So much so that it might actually break the current gamebalance. (for example twice the amount of great people makes golden ages a lot easier to achieve)

    Also, is it possible to move an entire thread into another tread? I agree that the designated place for this discussion would be the suggestions and requests tread.
     
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  7. Force44

    Force44 Prince

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    But I just thought of something, the redistribution of resources would be something nice to 'buy' with exploration points from the discussion about natural wonders.
     
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  8. Publicola

    Publicola Prince

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    Pretty sure Caveman2Cosmos has something similar, but limited to a 'Great Farmer' unit. That might be a good compromise, though it's true that only in the modern age have certain crops been redistributed by ecologists and dedicated agronomists. Before that... well, silk spread to the Byzantine Empire thanks to a monk returning from China who smuggled out a silkworm cocoon, and the 'Columbian Exchange' was pretty much a free for all. But giving this function to a dedicated unit makes more sense than allowing any/all Great Units to do the same.
     
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  9. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    Well, it isn't so many great people that you need, only per resource you want to acquire - then it's possible to create as many copies of the resource as allowed by the territory you control. This also means that civs could choose what handful of resources they want to produce in their empire, it's not meant to encourage for civ to be able to produce every resource in the game. Another option would be to have a Great Person do this action a couple of times before disappearing. For example, as euro civ you can send one great explorer unit (I think when they come into play, they should also be able to do this) to Asia, get 2 or 3 resources (maybe spices, tea, silk) in one "trip" and then you're good to produce these three in your colonies in the tropics.
     
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  10. Cacaso

    Cacaso Chieftain

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    in relation to the use of great people, as said here in the discussion, it could unbalance the game by targeting the golden ages and not the dissemination of resources, however, part of the "great explorer" idea could be used to give new functionality to unit explorer, it would be like this, if the civilization had friendly relations with the local civilization that owns the resource a unit explorer could go to the resource, perform a learning mission during some turns, win a promotion (it would be only 1 per explorer) and when that unit returned to the capital it was replaced by a planter (we could use the units of CIV4 Colonization), this would give us another way beyond espionage or founding a city close to the resource,

    in relation to constructions, I think that to maintain a good representation of history they should influence the value of resources at the time of diplomatic negotiation and not in the dissemination of resources, it would be more or less so, if the resource is exotic / monopolized (only Arabs or Asians have the resource to sell) its value is higher, but if there are many buildings that use this resource in all cities the resource has been popularized and its value decreases one little.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2020
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  11. Cacaso

    Cacaso Chieftain

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    The quantity, dates and locations of the native areas of the resources, as well as the areas qualified to receive the spawn of good soil for future resources were chosen after historical research, observation of the map and the disposition of resources. these factors are a suggestion for initial organization and can be modified for balancing.
    I ask you to review this mechanics to see if this is good or if there is something that should be modified.

    Questions

    Should the system of pests that affect resources be adopted? (as an example the case of potatoes in ireland)
    if the resource is exotic / monopolized (only Arabs or Asians have the resource to sell) its value should be higher in diplomatic negotiations, but if there are many buildings that use this resource in all cities showing that the resource has been popularized its value should one little decreases?
    Should the planter system as a whole be adopted? is it feasible to do?

    in general, the idea was this, I leave it here as a suggestion and I offer to help even though I have no knowledge of programming or design @Leoreth
     
  12. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    I'm assuming this is for the big map in my further comments.

    It's an interesting idea but in the end could become just as deterministic as the current system if not implemented correctly of course we are always straddling the line of historical play with sufficient variation to stay interesting. It is kind of an absurdity that I've seen games where no European exploration or settlement has been done in South America outside of Peru and all of the Old World resources magically spawn in Argentina/Brazil as if people had been importing them all along. Perhaps this could still be realistic with pigs because it only takes a few and a couple of generations, but not cattle, and not food/luxury crops.

    I think another great appeal aside from the already stated functions would be filling out the resource map of Africa in the late game. Numerous New/Old World crops become major staples of consumption and production across Africa during the colonial era and beyond and yet that's still not reflected in the mod. I understand not wanting to make colonizing Africa too appealing as soon as the crops spawn or spawning the crops too late to be relevant but this mechanic could make colonizing Africa an "investment" for civs with extra gold or civs that come late to colonialism. The New World already has a good amount of pre-existing luxury/production/food crops (corn, cocoa, rubber, vanilla, llama, potatoes etc.) so there is immediate appeal to colonizing even before importing foreign crops. Africa though doesn't have as many major food/luxury crops until after colonization. So New World colonies would be more immediately appealing whereas African colonies would be a long-term investment.

    Also, generally not a fan of Great Persons, love their function of course, but hate the idea. I wouldn't be on board with adding a Great Farmer/Planter. The great thing about agricultural history is that it's a peoples' history not a person's history. (All history is peoples' history but Great Man theory is ever-pervasive). I think it would be preferable in this regard to have a farmer or planter unit, just representing the hard work and ingenuity of all farmers, even if it too is consumable.
     

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