Suggestion: Unique Victory Conditions / Achivements
- Thread starter dh_epic
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Blasphemous
Graulich
Well, in-game they're very very hard to achieve, so either Arabia needs some boosting or the goal needs some tuning-down.
Hitti-Litti
Deity
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Blasphemous said:
Rome isn´t historical, but France is. Arabs tried to invade to France, but didn´t succeed. There was a big battle on Poitiers, Western France on October 10th, where Christian people took a victory over Muslims. I agree that one of Arabias goals should be conquering Egypt instead of Rome. BTW, one of the goals could be about Arabia spreading their state religion to Asia, just like Islam spread.
onedreamer
Dragon
Hitti-Litti said:
Uh ? Someone still wants to take it nowadays. And South Italy was taken. I think Italy was closer to fall to Saracins than France was.
onedreamer
Dragon
NitroJay said:
Actually, I was thinking that you can beeline for Music and use the Great Artist to achieve the 4000 culture. But the second culture requisite is impossible IMO.
Hitti-Litti
Deity
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onedreamer said:
Oh. Wrote that because I didn´t find anything about Italy on Wikipedia Moor article.
Blasphemous
Graulich
Played a lengthly test game as Spain yesterday, going for the UHV, and reached some conclusions (along with some random thoughts).
*Shouldn't Spain have some religion-oriented goal? It could be simply to get the Spanish state religion to 50% spread, which is very doable if you have Christianity but usually not easy.
*France seems too militarily strong. I got in a little border dispute with them over the city of León and it was all I could do to just keep them from conquering Santiago and Madrid. I only managed to retake León once and since then I've lost it and pretty much given up on it, focussing on France's holdings in the Americas. France seems to conjure up such huge stacks in Europe...
*Spain's goal of keeping the Americas free of French and English cities becomes very tedious, very quickly. Fighting for Quebéc and New York is one thing. Fighting for Martinique is something else. The goal can be made much less tedious if it were less absolute: Have more cities in the Americas than all other European powers put together.
*I encountered a bug with the First City in America goal: it counted itself achieved on the turn when I both circumnavigated the globe before anybody else and reached the shores of North Ameria before anybody else.
Ideas/thoughts
*Japan gets an incredibly long UHV game, starting in the BCE's and having goals in the Industrial era. Do we need to change this?
*It's not clear right now when you achieve a goal. There should be a popup telling you that you achieved a goal, and how many goals you have left. In goals that are really a few things put together sometimes there should be a popup for each element of the goal (in Spain's case, one for controlling Mexico and one for Peru) and there should also be popups informing you that you lost an element of the goal you had already gained (I assume a completed goal stays completed).
*The scoreboard doesn't make it clear when somebody is on their way to victory because it's not easy to spot the (1/3) and (2/3) in the sea of (0/3). Maybe that part of the scoreboard should only appear for a civ that has already achieved at least one goal, and then when the second goal is achieved the (2/3) can be colored yellow to warn you about rivals who are close to victory.
I'm going to playtest the UHVs some more today, I'm not sure I'll continue with Spain because that goal is so tedious that I really just don't feel like completing it.
*Shouldn't Spain have some religion-oriented goal? It could be simply to get the Spanish state religion to 50% spread, which is very doable if you have Christianity but usually not easy.
*France seems too militarily strong. I got in a little border dispute with them over the city of León and it was all I could do to just keep them from conquering Santiago and Madrid. I only managed to retake León once and since then I've lost it and pretty much given up on it, focussing on France's holdings in the Americas. France seems to conjure up such huge stacks in Europe...
*Spain's goal of keeping the Americas free of French and English cities becomes very tedious, very quickly. Fighting for Quebéc and New York is one thing. Fighting for Martinique is something else. The goal can be made much less tedious if it were less absolute: Have more cities in the Americas than all other European powers put together.
*I encountered a bug with the First City in America goal: it counted itself achieved on the turn when I both circumnavigated the globe before anybody else and reached the shores of North Ameria before anybody else.
Ideas/thoughts
*Japan gets an incredibly long UHV game, starting in the BCE's and having goals in the Industrial era. Do we need to change this?
*It's not clear right now when you achieve a goal. There should be a popup telling you that you achieved a goal, and how many goals you have left. In goals that are really a few things put together sometimes there should be a popup for each element of the goal (in Spain's case, one for controlling Mexico and one for Peru) and there should also be popups informing you that you lost an element of the goal you had already gained (I assume a completed goal stays completed).
*The scoreboard doesn't make it clear when somebody is on their way to victory because it's not easy to spot the (1/3) and (2/3) in the sea of (0/3). Maybe that part of the scoreboard should only appear for a civ that has already achieved at least one goal, and then when the second goal is achieved the (2/3) can be colored yellow to warn you about rivals who are close to victory.
I'm going to playtest the UHVs some more today, I'm not sure I'll continue with Spain because that goal is so tedious that I really just don't feel like completing it.
Rod
King
onedreamer said:
can you please explain more detailed how you want to beeline to Music until turn 83 ?
Blasphemous
Graulich
Played another test game for the last few hours, as Japan.
I very nearly managed to get the Top Score at 1500CE goal but failed because France started to become the top dog at about 1480. This was extremely annoying and it was essentially too late for me to do anything about it.
Until very near to the end I was sure this was an excellent goal, but now I'm convinced it has to be changed. The way the goal is right now Japan has very little control over its success. The goal should either be be in the top 3 civs by score at 1500 AD or something else, like stay at the top of the scoreboard for 20 turns straight after 1300 AD but before 1500 AD.
I didn't get to the other goals yet but they seem to overlap a little, even though I realize they aren't the same thing. I do like how they force you into a very isolationist play-style, making invasions of foreign lands an extremely risky business that is pretty much out of the question if you're determined to win by UHV.
I noticed two pretty annoying balancement problems. First of all, the only two cities in Japan that are actually productive are Kyoto and Akita, and Akita isn't even nearly as good as Kyoto. This makes most of Japan simple filler space. The islands should be more useful.
The other balancement issue was that Mongolia was impotent. Chine wiped them out within a few centuries of Mongolia's birth, and all within just a couple dozen turns of war. It should be the other way aroung.
I also encountered another bug in the victory screen: when I missed the Top Score deadline, the victory screen did notice that I failed a goal, but it wrote about the wrong one. I took screenshots.
I hope I get the chance to playtest some more today. I can't be sure of it, I have to be off to the apartment in a few hours...
I very nearly managed to get the Top Score at 1500CE goal but failed because France started to become the top dog at about 1480. This was extremely annoying and it was essentially too late for me to do anything about it.
Until very near to the end I was sure this was an excellent goal, but now I'm convinced it has to be changed. The way the goal is right now Japan has very little control over its success. The goal should either be be in the top 3 civs by score at 1500 AD or something else, like stay at the top of the scoreboard for 20 turns straight after 1300 AD but before 1500 AD.
I didn't get to the other goals yet but they seem to overlap a little, even though I realize they aren't the same thing. I do like how they force you into a very isolationist play-style, making invasions of foreign lands an extremely risky business that is pretty much out of the question if you're determined to win by UHV.
I noticed two pretty annoying balancement problems. First of all, the only two cities in Japan that are actually productive are Kyoto and Akita, and Akita isn't even nearly as good as Kyoto. This makes most of Japan simple filler space. The islands should be more useful.
The other balancement issue was that Mongolia was impotent. Chine wiped them out within a few centuries of Mongolia's birth, and all within just a couple dozen turns of war. It should be the other way aroung.
I also encountered another bug in the victory screen: when I missed the Top Score deadline, the victory screen did notice that I failed a goal, but it wrote about the wrong one. I took screenshots.
I hope I get the chance to playtest some more today. I can't be sure of it, I have to be off to the apartment in a few hours...
McA123
Prince
I think Rome's goals are waaaaay to hard. I gave a go at them the other day and I've concluded that achieving all 3 of them in conjuction is impossible. Well, for me anyways. Sure, it's somewhat easy to get the building requirements, and I was actually pretty close to the border requirements, if I'd've moved a bit faster I might have come even closer, but i have decided it is impossible to achieve those 2 goals along with the final one, not to lose any cities to barbarians. Even this wouldn't be so hard if not for a few areas that recieve a LOT of barbarian pressure. I am, of course, referring to North Africa, Northern Greece and Austria. Austria can be held with a few archers and some walls thanks to the river bonus and that it doesn't get hit by camel archers, and even Constantinople isn't that hard to hold, you just have to be ready. Carthage, on the other hand is almost impossible to keep. A few archers and a few praetorians just CAN'T hold out against droves of camel archers and horse archers. I lost between 5-6 archers and 3-4 praetorians trying to hold it, and in the end I couldn't keep it. I lost it around 700AD, shortly after the Spaniards spawned. And Leptis Magna, well, that fell several years earlier to a few stray camel/horse archers.
Something has to be done. Be it lessened barbarian pressure in Africa, a slight modificiation of Roman goals or whatever else seems appropriate. I just simply think achieving all 3 goals within one game is impossible, since they all make each other harder. You have to use up valuable production time in your big cities to build stuff, while still pumping out praetorians to take land, building settlers and providing escorts, trying to get the valuable wonders like the Great Lighthouse and at the same time trying to ensure you don't lose a city to barbs.
Something has to be done. Be it lessened barbarian pressure in Africa, a slight modificiation of Roman goals or whatever else seems appropriate. I just simply think achieving all 3 goals within one game is impossible, since they all make each other harder. You have to use up valuable production time in your big cities to build stuff, while still pumping out praetorians to take land, building settlers and providing escorts, trying to get the valuable wonders like the Great Lighthouse and at the same time trying to ensure you don't lose a city to barbs.
Hitti-Litti
Deity
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Does the French goal "Make Paris #1 cultural city in the world" if I make Amiens my capital by moving the settler north to get my capital to coast?
NitroJay
Warlord
Alright, I just finished a game with Rome. Well, I didn't finish it, I got to a point where I decided it wasn't worth continuing...
Anyway, I agree, the Roman HV are WAY to difficult, but I think that they are right on... I know this doesn't make much sense, but let me explain:
Not losing any cities to barbs isn't that hard. I was able to do that one. I just kept 3 or so archers in the cities I knew would need the attention and used the slavery rush if I got into any trouble. I held Carthage and that other city down there on the N. coast of Africa against the Camel Archers with Spearmen. In the meantime, I was even able to conquer Egypt. (They started it.
)
I didn't give a shot at the HV for the borders, since I was actually just playing to survive the barbarians... (Another thread) I just used the legionaires, or whatever they're called now, to take whatever barbarian cities showed up and kept fortifying the captured cities with archers. It seemed simple enough to attain the border goals if I was really trying, BUT...
I wish that the legionaires road building and fortress building would be put back in from the civ3 version of this mod. That would make the border goals that much easier to achieve. I also think that legionaires should be quicker to build... At no point did I feel like I had the MASSIVE roman legions of the history books... It felt more like I just had thousands of archers and a few guys with swords to take cities... It wasn't that satisfying...
As for the building reqs... I think that if the legions were able to be built faster, meeting the building portion of the HV would be more attainable.
I agree that the Roman HV should include both Rome's infrastructure and military might, but in the confines of civ4, it's difficult to do both at the same time. I am convinced that making the legions quicker to build (and give them back their road building ability) would make Rome a much more fun civ to play as, as well as make it a more formitable AI opponent.
I'm going to give Arabia a shot next...
Anyway, I agree, the Roman HV are WAY to difficult, but I think that they are right on... I know this doesn't make much sense, but let me explain:
Not losing any cities to barbs isn't that hard. I was able to do that one. I just kept 3 or so archers in the cities I knew would need the attention and used the slavery rush if I got into any trouble. I held Carthage and that other city down there on the N. coast of Africa against the Camel Archers with Spearmen. In the meantime, I was even able to conquer Egypt. (They started it.
)I didn't give a shot at the HV for the borders, since I was actually just playing to survive the barbarians... (Another thread) I just used the legionaires, or whatever they're called now, to take whatever barbarian cities showed up and kept fortifying the captured cities with archers. It seemed simple enough to attain the border goals if I was really trying, BUT...
I wish that the legionaires road building and fortress building would be put back in from the civ3 version of this mod. That would make the border goals that much easier to achieve. I also think that legionaires should be quicker to build... At no point did I feel like I had the MASSIVE roman legions of the history books... It felt more like I just had thousands of archers and a few guys with swords to take cities... It wasn't that satisfying...
As for the building reqs... I think that if the legions were able to be built faster, meeting the building portion of the HV would be more attainable.
I agree that the Roman HV should include both Rome's infrastructure and military might, but in the confines of civ4, it's difficult to do both at the same time. I am convinced that making the legions quicker to build (and give them back their road building ability) would make Rome a much more fun civ to play as, as well as make it a more formitable AI opponent.
I'm going to give Arabia a shot next...
cece84
Chieftain
japan goals are too easy
the only difficulit goal is the first but you can manage it well. Forget china, build as many wonder as possible (2 cities are ok). Play as a OCC but you don't need units. You can easily build wonders thanks to bronze+iron sources near kyoto.
When 1300-1400 come, found some cities (2,3) and try to conquer a big chinese city if you can. ( i took the confucian holy city and then rushed the kong miao (confucian holy temple... don't remember if it's name is kong miao
)
I was first by 40 points in 1500. France has surpassed me 30-40 years later
From now on, the historical victory is your. (culture + good defending units)
the only difficulit goal is the first but you can manage it well. Forget china, build as many wonder as possible (2 cities are ok). Play as a OCC but you don't need units. You can easily build wonders thanks to bronze+iron sources near kyoto.
When 1300-1400 come, found some cities (2,3) and try to conquer a big chinese city if you can. ( i took the confucian holy city and then rushed the kong miao (confucian holy temple... don't remember if it's name is kong miao
)I was first by 40 points in 1500. France has surpassed me 30-40 years later
From now on, the historical victory is your. (culture + good defending units)
Ghostofkuji
Chieftain
How about changing Japan's goals to reflect their expansion prior to WW2? The trick would be to capture and then hold the territory.
As a side note, I think Mali's goals seem rather high. I can never get enough gold!
As a side note, I think Mali's goals seem rather high. I can never get enough gold!
dc82
Prince
Yeah, I had put that as one of the suggestions early on to reflect later periods. So one, the conquest of certain cities/locations throughout East/Southeast Asia, maybe even as far as Australia for WWII Japan. And two, a certain amount of productivity or economic strength/technology to reflect Japan today.
McA123
Prince
NitroJay said:
I agree with you totally. They reflect ancient Rome well, but they're just too hard to achieve. Also, once the bonus for achieving 2 goals is put in, it would be extremely easy to get that bonus by just ignoring the borders goal. You could, theoretically, do no expanding and stick with Panormus, Rome and Mediolanum and ensure that Panormus stays small. There's enough production in the other 2 to make it possible to get the building requirements. Probably not worth the effort, but still a possible exploitation.
Rhye
's and Fall creator
is it any better without Persia and Germany as objectives?
Surtur
Warlord
I think objectives are fine, we should try to change the game to make them possible (e.g. cheaper Praetorians as someone mentioned before or another UP).
Elhoim
Iron Tower Studio Dev
I agree with Surtur...
NitroJay
Warlord
The Roman HV objectives are fine as they are, but they need to be made to be attainable. Cheaper praetorians would be excellent. Giving them their road building ability back (from the civ3 version of this mod) would make everything come together I think.
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