Suggestions and requests

I think Italy is a MUST Civilization in the 1700 scenario, it's really a shame that I have NEVER seen them appear in my games, a country like Italy should be in the game, specially in the modern ages to make the game more realistical.
I'd like to also thank Leoreth for the new events, the game is really much more fun now, maybe we should add even more events as to make the game more realistical and interesting.
Thanks in advance for the attention.
 
Ok another sugestion, that I've been thinking about for a long time, why not make destroyers etc to require oil OR coal? I think it's much more realistic as for a long time the feared dreadnoughts were fueled by coal and not oil, but in the game you can only have a modern navy if you have acess to oil which wasn't really the case.
 
The naval unit roster requires a complete overhaul anyway.
 
It could be more simple as you suggest, but I want a better solution. For instance a separation of late industrial torpedo boats / dreadnoughts and WW2 era destroyers.
 
It could be more simple as you suggest, but I want a better solution. For instance a separation of late industrial torpedo boats / dreadnoughts and WW2 era destroyers.

I thought about how to tackle the problem of naval combat.
The problem is with naval combat is that there is no equalizer like siege collateral
or any sort of flanking bonus and things like that.
Naval combat is akin to smashing your head against the wall and seeing if the wall has a dent or if your forehead does.
Problem #1: Ships are too expensive for what they do; which is generally very little, and very niche. The cost-benefit ratio is unfavorably skewed.
Problem #2: There aren't enough classes of ships to lend variety to combat.

Here are some of my mad ramblings on something I came up with:

TAGS:
(L): Light-class; meant to overwhelm in large numbers; sea-based equivalent of siege.
(T): Transport-class; self-explanatory
(BB): Bread & Butter; meant to form the core of your forces
(F): Flagship; muscle ships, think of them as cav-equivalents or CR melee units on land.
(S): Support-role; bag of tricks

MAN TIER


Lembos (L) 2 STR, 3 MOV, 30 Hammers, Inflicts collateral damage (max 40%)
Galley (T) 2 STR, 2 MOV, 40 Hammers, Can carry up to 2 units.
Gain an extra MOV point for each Worker or Slave onboard.
Trireme (BB) 3 STR, 2 MOV, 45 Hammers. May bombard (6%). May blocklade. Can inflict flanking damage on Galleys upon sinking a unit.

SAIL TIER
-All Sail Tier units gain a +50% bonus vs. all ships of a preceding tier class.
-All Sail Tier units may enter ocean.

Caravel (S) 4 STR, 5 MOV, 45 Hammers, Can carry Scouts/Explorers/GPs.
May pass through rival territory. No maintenance upkeep.
Galleon (T) 5 STR, 4 MOV, 55 Hammers, Can carry up to 3 units.
Gain an extra MOV point for each Worker or Slave onboard.
Frigate (BB) 7 STR, 4 MOV, 60 Hammers, Can inflict flanking damage on Galleons upon sinking a unit.
May bombard (8%). May blockade.
Ship of the Line (F) 8 STR, 4 MOV, 75 Hammers, +50% vs. Frigates & Galleons.
Priority targeting of Frigates in an enemy stack. May bombard (8%). May blockade.
Privateer (L) 5 STR, 5 MOV, 60 Hammers, Inflicts collateral damage (max 40%)
Hidden nationality. May blockade.

Harbor: +1 Food from water tiles. +3 EXP to all naval units built in this city.
Lighthouse: +1 Commerce from water tiles. Heal naval units extra 10% damage/turn

Spoiler :

Unfinished mad ramblings:

PRE-MOD TIER
-All Pre-Mod Tier units gain a +50% bonus vs. all ships of a preceding tier class.
-All Pre-Mod Tier units may enter ocean.

Gunboat (Ironclad is merged into this ship class; L)
Cruiser (BB)
Lander (T)
U-Boat (S) invisible
Dreadnought (F)

MODERN TIER
-All Modern Tier units gain a +50% bonus vs. all ships of a preceding tier class.
-All Modern Tier units may enter ocean.

Corvette (L)
Modern Lander (T)
Destroyer (BB)
Submarine (S)
Invisible. Comes with one free Guided Missile.
Aircraft Carrier (supersedes the role of the Missile Cruiser) (F)
Can carry up to 4 aircraft.
+2 STR for each aircraft onboard.
+3 STR for each aircraft attached with a Great General.

Depth Charge: First in the stack to defend. Inflicts collateral damage.
 
TAGS:
(L): Light-class; meant to overwhelm in large numbers; sea-based equivalent of siege.
(T): Transport-class; self-explanatory
(BB): Bread & Butter; meant to form the core of your forces
(F): Flagship; muscle ships, think of them as cav-equivalents or CR melee units on land.
(S): Support-role; bag of tricks

I'll use your tags T, B & L. I would say that S is the spy ships (submarines). I didn't understand what the F class is about, I'll use instead the H class (heavy), ships stronger than normal, but too expensive. I see the L class as a mounted units counterpart, not as a collateral damage counterpart. I will add a class E, exploration ships. The class B should be the most efficient strength/production cost, while the class L and H should be inefficient (but the class L should be cheap, and the class H strong). Class T and E shouldn't have any strength.

Classical and medieval (cannot enter ocean):
T: Galley: :strength:1 :move:3 20:hammers: space:2 (I like the worker/slave effect)
L: Lembos: :strength:2 :move:4 35:hammers: instead of collateral damage, a 20% withdraw chance
B: Trireme: :strength:3 :move:2 45:hammers:
H: Dromon: :strength:4 :move:2 70:hammers: causes collateral damage
S: Peiratikon: :strength:2 :move:4 35:hammers: classical era pirate ship (piracy was common in classical times) +30% on defence
E: Present ships: :strength:2 :move:4 45:hammers:, can enter rival territory (used by China), +40% vs barbarians
 
Renaiscance (require iron):
T: Galleon: strength:2 :move:4 50:hammers: space:3
L: Clipper: strength:3 :move:5 55:hammers: 50% chance of withdraw
B: Frigate: strength:5 :move:3 70:hammers:
H: Ship of the line strength:6 :move:2 90:hammers:, causes collateral damage, +20% vs frigate
S: Privateer: strength:3 :move:5 70:hammers: +50% on defence
E: Caravel: strength:3 :move:5 60:hammers:, can enter rival territory, +50% vs barbarians

Industrial (require coal and maybe iron):
T: Steamboat: strength:4 :move:5 70:hammers: space:4
L: Steam Clipper: strength:5 :move:6 70:hammers: 75% chance of withdraw, +20%vs Steamboat, early submarine
B: Steam Frigate: strength:7 :move:4 91:hammers:
H: Ironclad: :strength:9 move:4 120:hammers:, causes collateral damage
S: Early submarine: strength:5 :move:6 70:hammers:, invisible to most units

WWI&II &modern (require oil and maybe iron):
T: Transport: strength:5 move:7 space:5
L: Barbetteship: strength:7 move:7 85hammers: 75% chance of withdraw, +20% vs submarine
B: Turretship: strength:10 move:5 120hammers:
H: Torpedo ship: strength:12 move:5 160hammers:, causes collateral damage
S: Submarine: strength:7 move:7 85hammers:,+15% vs steam frigate, invisible to most units, can see other submarines

Future (require uranium and maybe oil):
T: Carrier: strength:8, move:7 space:3 (carries airplanes and not units)
L: Corvette: strength:10 move:9 120hammers:, 50% chance of withdraw
B: Cuisser: strength:13 move:6 150hammers:
H: Battleship: strength:16 move:6 195hammers:, causes collateral damage
S: Nuclear submarine: strength:9 move:9 120hammers:, invisible to most units, can see other submarines

Privateers and submarines: They work like sea spies.
The bonuses are estimated to balance the order of power (for example all ships should be able to destroy transports, even if they are promoted, the exploring ships should explore even if they find barbarian in their way, etc...)
 
@TD: I like this, especially the idea to introduce a counter and collateral damage system (maybe promotions - I'm thinking Greek fire - could take care of this instead of a new unit too).

But I also thought about adding another tier in the Middle Ages, because I've always found it odd that Ancient galleys are still your best ships until the Age of Sail begins properly.

As far as the Industrial/Modern era are concerned, I'm very tempted to just steal History Rewritten's unit roster there because it looks very reasonable. In fact I'm very tempted to just steal the Industrial part of the HR tech tree, to be honest. But that's a different topic.
 
Ships are very expensive, but I think that it's justified. They represent a significant investment of resources roughly equal to multiple siege weapons plus the ability to float. The hammer cost should reflect that. Industrial and Modern ships are essentially floating fortresses or cities complete with power plants and many siege weapons.

I also think that the high cost is justified for game balance. In general, ships aren't necessary for survival; they just provide an extra bonus to your reach and capability for those civs willing and able to spend the hammers. If you have an island civ then you can skimp on your land army to make up the extra hammers.

I do like the idea of adding more ships though. I think that one problem is that combat is highly variable. Both players bring hugely expensive ships and one player walks away with nothing. If you added smaller ships, counter-units, and siege then it would be easier to reach the expected outcome with less variance.
 
Ships are very expensive, but I think that it's justified. They represent a significant investment of resources roughly equal to multiple siege weapons plus the ability to float. The hammer cost should reflect that. Industrial and Modern ships are essentially floating fortresses or cities complete with power plants and many siege weapons.

I also think that the high cost is justified for game balance. In general, ships aren't necessary for survival; they just provide an extra bonus to your reach and capability for those civs willing and able to spend the hammers. If you have an island civ then you can skimp on your land army to make up the extra hammers.

I do like the idea of adding more ships though. I think that one problem is that combat is highly variable. Both players bring hugely expensive ships and one player walks away with nothing. If you added smaller ships, counter-units, and siege then it would be easier to reach the expected outcome with less variance.

This is precisely why I reduced the cost on ships.
Because of a lack of game balance stemming from the high cost of ship building.
The issue is that the value you derive from your hammers into building a ship
does NOT currently line up, as it should be, as the game is designed.
The L class ships I proposed for one are meant to be dirt-cheap because they will form a significant portion of your stack.
BB class ships are a bit more but not by much as to not discourage you from building them and opting to go pure L class.
And the F class ships are meant to be expensive monsters that can be used for stackbreaking.

If you have an island civ then you can skimp on your land army to make up the extra hammers.

England.

EDIT: As for realism. This is how I see it.
If you spend 140 Hammers to raise an Infantry, that's 16000 men (according to this: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/demographics.php)
you are feeding, training, arming and setting up pensions and paperwork for.
If you dumping 200 Hammers to build a Destroyer, that's 1 Destroyer that you're just building and arming.
To me, that doesn't add up, considering comparing the two, they are the bread & butter for land and sea respectively of their (shared) era.
 
But I think your suggestion, with all due respect, lacks the essential thing that I was talking about, the feared Dreadnoughts and most ww1 battleships were fueled by coal, and in the game at the moment you need oil to be able to make most modern ships and that wasn't the case irl.
I think ships like the Dreadnoughts needs to be very expensive and powerfull, but smaller ships could be much cheaper. I also think that heavy ships (Dreadnoughts etc) needs to be more powerfull somehow, to reflect it's importance in the industrial era. A country could force another into submission by bringing a warship into the other nations coast, but in the game it's not what happens, as you can only bombard the city defenses or blockade their ports, what (in the game) is not as effective as it should be.
 
But I think your suggestion, with all due respect, lacks the essential thing that I was talking about, the feared Dreadnoughts and most ww1 battleships were fueled by coal, and in the game at the moment you need oil to be able to make most modern ships and that wasn't the case irl.
I think ships like the Dreadnoughts needs to be very expensive and powerfull, but smaller ships could be much cheaper. I also think that heavy ships (Dreadnoughts etc) needs to be more powerfull somehow, to reflect it's importance in the industrial era. A country could force another into submission by bringing a warship into the other nations coast, but in the game it's not what happens, as you can only bombard the city defenses or blockade their ports, what (in the game) is not as effective as it should be.

I know. I haven't finished them yet; if you looked in my spoilers, you can see that I have them listed but not statted out.
I'll see if I can design some medieval ships as well, as Leoreth likes.
Hammer balance is delicate. Flagships can't be so much more expensive than Light ships because you would just spam Light ships.
By the same token, they can't be too close in cost because you would just raise an armada of Flagships.
 
You could still add one extra-strong unit which takes a lot of turns to build into the modern tiers, just like how Dreadnoughts and Battleships were in WW1 and WW2 era, susceptible to aerial strikes and overwhelming numbers.

And btw the airplanes could recieve some improvement too, this two (and a half, with the airship) tier upgrading is quite boring.
 
If large ships are more expensive, surely it should be them who can cause collateral damage. This would counterbalance the cheaper small ships.

(And don't call me Shirley.)
 
If large ships are more expensive, surely it should be them who can cause collateral damage. This would counterbalance the cheaper small ships.

(And don't call me Shirley.)

I agree we should move collateral to Capital ships if Light ships have about 70% innate withdrawal chance and if you get two Light ships at once (a la Zergling) upon building them.
However, I remember before when I was proposing my Rurales idea that it wasn't possible.
Perhaps srpt could find a solution here?
 
Okay. I have revised the list.

@citis: A flagship or capital ship is supposed to be the central and most important ship in the fleet.
It's where the admiral usually is and is heavily armed and difficult to take out.

@Leoreth: It doesn't make sense to me to lead an attack in a naval engagement with your capital ship, but I have made a compromise.
Early light ships deal most of the collateral damage, however, the role later changes hands to the flagships and the light ships become naval skirmishers.

TAGS:

(L): Light-class; meant to overwhelm in large numbers; sea-based equivalent of siege.
(T): Transport-class; self-explanatory
(BB): Bread & Butter; meant to form the core of your forces
(F): Flagship; muscle ships, think of them as cav-equivalents or CR melee units on land.
(S): Support-role; bag of tricks

MAN TIER


Lembos (L) 2 STR, 3 MOV, 25 Hammers.
-Inflicts collateral damage (max 40%).
-50% withdrawal chance.
-Cannot sink ships.

Galley (T) 1 STR, 2 MOV, 35 Hammers.
-Cargo Space: 2
-Gain an extra MOV point for each Worker or Slave onboard.

Trireme (BB) 3 STR, 2 MOV, 40 Hammers.
-May blocklade.
-May bombard (6%).
-Can inflict flanking damage on Galleys upon sinking a unit.
+50% vs. Lembos & Galley.

MED TIER
-All Med Tier units gain a +50% bonus vs. all ships of a preceding tier class.
-Machinery unlocks Med Tier ships.

Monoxyla (L) 3 STR, 3 MOV, 30 Hammers.
-Cargo Space: 1
-Melee units gain temporary Amphibious promotion when attacking from this unit.
-Gain an extra MOV point for each Worker/Slave onboard.
-70% withdrawal chance.

Chelandion (T) 2 STR, 3 MOV, 40 Hammers.
-Cargo Space: 3
-Starts with Drill I.
-Cavalry units gain temporary Amphibious promotion when attacking from this unit.
-Gain an extra MOV point for each Worker/Slave onboard.

Dromon (BB) 4 STR, 2 MOV, 45 Hammers.
-May bombard (6%).
-Can inflict collateral damage (max 40%).
+25% bonus vs. Monoxyla and Chelandion on attack.

Koumbaria (F) 6 STR, 2 MOV, 55 Hammers.
-Can fortify.

SAIL TIER
-All Sail Tier units gain a +50% bonus vs. all ships of a preceding tier class.
-All Sail Tier units may enter ocean.
-All Sail Tier units except Caravel & Privateer require Iron.

Caravel (S) 4 STR, 5 MOV, 45 Hammers
-Cargo Space: 1
-Can only carry Scouts/Explorers/GPs.
-May pass through rival territory.
-No maintenance upkeep.

Galleon (T) 5 STR, 4 MOV, 55 Hammers.
-Cargo Space: 3.
-Gain an extra MOV point for each Worker or Slave onboard.

Frigate (BB) 7 STR, 4 MOV, 60 Hammers.
-May blockade.
-May bombard (8%).
-Can inflict flanking damage on Galleons upon sinking a unit.

Ship of the Line (F) 8 STR, 4 MOV, 75 Hammers.
-May blockade.
-May bombard (8%).
-Priority targeting of Frigates in an enemy stack.
+50% vs. Frigates & Galleons.

Privateer (L) 5 STR, 5 MOV, 60 Hammers,
-May blockade.
-Hidden nationality.
-Inflicts collateral damage (max 40%).

Harbor: +1 Food from water tiles. +3 EXP to all naval units built in this city.
Lighthouse: +1 Commerce from water tiles. Heal naval units extra 10% damage/turn

PRE-MOD TIER
-All Pre-Mod Tier units gain a +50% bonus vs. all ships of a preceding tier class.
-All Pre-Mod Tier units may enter ocean.
-All Pre-Mod Tier units except for Gunboat and Depth Charge require Coal.

Gunboat (L) 7 STR, 5 MOV, 60 Hammers.
-Cargo Space: 1
-Can bombard (6%)
-50% withdrawal chance.

Cruiser (BB) 8 STR, 5 MOV, 80 Hammers.
-Can detect invisible units.
-Can blockade.
-Can bombard (8%)
-Can intercept aircraft (25%)
+25% bonus vs. Air Units.
+25% bonus vs. U-Boat & Lander.
+50% bonus vs. Gunboat on attack.

Lander (T) 6 STR, 6 MOV, 70 Hammers.
-Cargo Space: 4

U-Boat (S) 7 STR, 6 MOV, 80 Hammers.
-May pass through rival territory.
-Invisible.
-Can detect invisible units.
-Immune to collateral damage.
-Priority targeting Dreadnought.
-50% to generate a Depth Charge on kill.
-50% withdrawal chance.
+50% bonus vs. Lander & Dreadnought on attack.

Dreadnought (F) 11 STR, 5 MOV, 100 Hammers.
-Cargo Space: 2
-Can blockade.
-Can bombard (12%)
-Can inflict collateral damage (max 60%)
-Enables amphibious attacks for Bombard, Cannon & Artillery.
+20% bonus vs. Air Units.
+50% bonus vs. Cruiser.

Depth Charge (S) 4 STR, 5 MOV, 30 Hammers.
-Can only defend.
-Depth Charge is automatically destroyed after one round of battle.
-Inflicts collateral damage to the attacking stack (max 30%).

MODERN TIER
-All Modern Tier units gain a +50% bonus vs. all ships of a preceding tier class.
-All Modern Tier units may enter ocean.
-All Modern Tier units except Corvette & Dolphin Soldier require Oil.
-Dolphin Soldier requires Whale.

Corvette (L) 10 STR, 6 MOV, 80 Hammers.
-Can bombard (8%)
-Cargo Space: 2
-70% withdrawal chance.

Modern Lander (T) 8 STR, 7 MOV, 100 Hammers.
-Cargo Space: 4
-Can intercept aircraft (25%)

Destroyer (BB) 12 STR, 6 MOV, 120 Hammers.
-Can blockade.
-Can bombard (12%).
-Can detect invisible units.
-Can intercept aircraft (35%)
+25% bonus vs. Air Units.
+50% bonus vs. Submarine.
+50% bonus vs. Corvette on attack.

Submarine (S) 12 STR, 7 MOV, 115 Hammers.
-May pass through rival territory.
-Cargo Space: 2
-Can only carry Guided Missile, Tactical Nuke & GPs.
-Invisible.
-Can detect invisible units.
-Immune to collateral damage.
-Priority targeting Carrier.
-Comes with one free Guided Missile.
+50% bonus vs. Carrier.

Carrier (F) 15 STR, 6 MOV, 140 Hammers.
-Cargo Space: 4
-Can blockade.
-Can only carry Fighters & Jet Fighters.
-Heal air units 10% damage/turn.
-Inflicts collateral damage (max 75%)
+1 STR for each Fighter onboard.
+2 STR for each Jet Fighter onboard.
+1 additional STR for each air unit attached with a Great General.

Dolphin Soldier (S) 5 STR, 7 MOV, 95 Hammers.
-Free Medic I promotion.
-Can detect invisible units.
-Immune to collateral damage.
-Can spend a turn creating a Depth Charge for 25 Gold.

Upgrade Path:

(Light tree)
Lembos -> Monoxyla -> Privateer -> Gunboat -> Corvette

(Transport tree)
Galley -> Chelandion -> Galleon -> Lander -> Modern Lander

(Bread & Butter tree)
Trireme -> Dromon -> Frigate -> Cruiser -> Destroyer

(Flagship tree)
Koumbaria -> Ship of the Line -> Dreadnought -> Carrier

(Support trees)
Caravel -> Cruiser (becomes Bread & Butter)
U-Boat -> Submarine
Depth Charge does not upgrade.
Dolphin Soldier does not upgrade.
 
That looks good. But I'd really like to push that topic into the next version or else we'll never have a release.
 
I have forgotten to ask, but which units can see Stealth Destroyers? I haven't found any.

I would change TD's tree into this:

Upgrade Path:

(Light tree)
Lembos -> Monoxyla -> Privateer -> Gunboat -> Corvette

(Transport tree)
Galley -> Chelandion -> Galleon -> Lander -> Modern Lander

(Bread & Butter tree)
Trireme -> Dromon -> Frigate -> Cruiser -> Destroyer -> Stealth Destroyer

(Flagship tree)
Koumbaria -> Ship of the Line -> Dreadnought -> Battleship & Carrier -> Super Carrier
 
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