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Suggestions and Requests

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Sep 11, 2014.

  1. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Some might be surprised at this, but I'm actually not opposed to a Celtic civ in principle, mostly because it's rather early in the game so they aren't really a drain on performance, and because they can represent Ireland later, which deserves to be an independent civ more than Australia or Canada.

    Germans have two civilizations already, they don't need a third, and I really don't think we should add more Seljuk like civs anywhere, the one we have is bad enough already.

    A world without an expansionist Russia is not a world I want to be living in. :lol: I guess the Mongols can have it? :dunno:
     
  2. Publicola

    Publicola Prince

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    I entirely agree re: a Celtic civ. Personally I liked the proposal (I have no idea who outlined it or when) to have the Celtic civ spawn in central Europe, with one of the UHV conditions being founding a city in Ireland at least, possibly England as well. This would be a huge benefit for the early Viking game -- no longer would the Viking UHV require only settling multiple cities along the New World route, but with the Celtic civ in their way it might actually involve some conquest.

    I also like the idea of making the 'Germanic barbarians' spawn part of an actual playable civ -- frankly, I'd be in favor of doing the same for the Seljuks, for the same reasons the Mongols are playable (any civ with that much of an impact on a region's history should be playable). My suggestion would be to use the same slot as the Prussian civ: have an early Germanic spawn that competes with Rome and the Celts, with the major UHV of 'capture Rome by ____', and with an expiration date so that the Holy Roman spawn takes over their entire core. Then you can make the current Prussian civ a simple respawn of the same slot, like Iran respawns from Persia or Mexico from the Aztecs.
     
  3. adhiraj.bose

    adhiraj.bose Deity

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    I didn't think a communist would be so overfond of imperial Russia :p . Regardless, the issue it would address is what would happen if a Russia re spawn does not happen and Russia gets nipped in the bud by either the Holy Roman empire or by the Mongols. In the older version Russia kept repeatedly getting swallowed up by nearby Asian powers or European powers leaving a vast empty Siberia. That is honestly quite annoying to see. The AI Chinese won't settle the hinterland so the only alternative would be to fill it with someone else, the Mongols would be the best candidate I would guess.
     
  4. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    I like that, though could we maybe put an independent city in England which autobuilds Stonehenge similar to Jerusalem and the Temple of Solomon?

    And good Marx no, no Germanic civ. They are like the quintessential barbarians, no way should they be a civilization.
     
  5. BenZL43

    BenZL43 awkward cat

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    A bit sad after I'm long gone, came back here to checking up on stuff and... see (eternal?) debates on Seljuk civ, Celtic civ and NA civ up again.

    Both Celtic and NA civ will mess up ideal city placement for later Europe & America, fyi.
     
  6. Panopticon

    Panopticon Utilitarian

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    Celts had hardly any cities as conventionally understood.
     
  7. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Whatever happened to the suggestion of making culture more useful? Imo for every culture level in a city it should give a percentage bonus to great people birth.
     
  8. Genghis Khaiser

    Genghis Khaiser King

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    It totally makes sense. Maybe with every level of culture in a city (refined, influential, and such) great people have a higher rate birth.

    And as I have seen your issues with Canada, I would suggest either making them spawn as vassals of Great Britain, or making a vassal succession line:

    If Great Britain is dead, then it is a vassal of France.
    If both Great Britain and France are dead, then it is a vassal of the USA.
     
  9. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    I can't recall the exact names of the culture levels, so I'll go by what I think are the values for each:

    More than 10 Culture: +10% Great People Birth Rate
    More than 100 Culture: +20% Great People Birth Rate
    More than 500 Culture: +30% Great People Birth Rate
    More than 5.000 Culture: +40% Great People Birth Rate

    I think the only one after that is Legendary with 50.000, which might as well throw in another +50%

    These values should stack btw, so a city with e.g. 600 culture should have +60% Great People Birth Rate, and a Legendary city would give a whopping +150% Birth Rate to Great People, which might actually make culture victory possible in this mod.

    Honestly Canada spawns way too soon. Poor England doesn't have a chance of building the real British Empire with its height in the late 19th and early 20th century.

    There are two things which need to be done to address that: First, change the colonization UHV deadline to 1900 while throwing in more required cities per continent, and add a Cape to Cairo railway condition as well. Secondly Canada's and Australia's spawns need to be way later, like in the middle of the 20th century, if they are not conditional. If they are conditional they might as well spawn in the 19th century if their current owner is unstable, maybe as vassal of them.

    Also to that capitalist puppetmaster behind Leoreth who accused me of clamoring for an eternal British Empire I'd like to say that no, I don't want it to be eternal, I just want it to not be over a century before it even got started in real life, which is exactly what the current situation is! The English UHV and Canadian spawndate make it seem as if the British Empire had its height in the early 1730s and started declining over the following century, when nothing could be further from the historical truth! It boggles my mind how the 1730 deadline, a relic from the early days of Vanilla RFC when America spawned in 1730, is still in place, and rather than making England's Unique Historical Victory actually historical, Leoreth decided to shaft England even more by throwing in a wannabe civ that takes a great portion of its land at a point in time when the real British Empire was just about to reach its height and stay there for another few decades! How is that remotely accurate? And don't you dare throw the gameplay excuse at me, when we could easily have the best of both worlds with a conditional Canadian spawn that allows the maple syrup addicts to play their hippie wannabe civ without ruining a human controlled British Empire!
     
  10. Publicola

    Publicola Prince

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    The only concern I'd have re: cultural levels converting to Great Person % modifiers, would be the challenging of rebalancing... well, pretty much everything. I entirely agree that there should be an added benefit for culture, but giving such a boost (and a *stacking* boost at that) to GP points means that every civ would receive more Great People over time -- great prophets to discover Theology earlier (goodbye Ethiopian UHV), great engineers to build wonders quicker (whelp, there goes all the wonder UHVs), great scientists to build academies and accelerate global research.

    In short, I love the idea, but rebalancing would turn it into a nightmare. On the other hand, Imp. Knoedel, you do have a modmod of your own... perhaps you should test it out first before asking Leoreth to integrate it into the main mod.


    As for Canada: I was on the fence before, but your rant actually convinced me. Canada only really became a fully independent civ (in DoC terms) after 1931 -- they have increasing autonomy and self-governance before that, but that was the point they received actual legal status as such.

    I would be strongly in favor of revising England's UHV conditions to better reflect the British Empire at its height. The problem is that the only way this would work would be to push Canada's spawn to 1931 or thereabouts. But that would also push Canada's UHV to post-1931, and what else is there for the UHV to cover? By 1931, the westward expansion was basically finished, the cities were populated and provinces recognied, the transcontinental railroad was long since complete... sure, you got the 'end 12 wars with diplomacy' thing, but what else is left for Canada to do?


    Finally, as for the Germans: good Smith, yes yes, there should be a Germanic civs. For heaven's sake, you could just as validly say that the Mongols "were the quintessential barbarian" and "had hardly any cities as conventionally understood." They are a recognized civ because they had such an outsized impact on everyone else. And while they didn't start off with cities, they certainly managed to conquer quite a few of them.

    I think I'm probably going to post a 'new civ' proposal thread for this. Or possibly resuscitate one of the old 'this is why the Celts should be a playable civ' threads from however long ago.
     
  11. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    But that would require actual programming! D:

    Golly gee, it's almost as if everything that makes Canada a civilization is actually the result of the achievements of the British Empire! D:

    What I would be content with is this: Canada will spawn in 1867 when it is human controlled (that is the human play selects it in the startup screen) or if its territory is mostly independent or under the control of an unstable civ. If neither of that applies, it will hard spawn in 1931.

    For crying out loud, the separation of Holy Rome and Germany was too much already, and you honestly want to give Germany a third civ? And people say Americans keep going on about their exceptionalism. :rolleyes:

    The only way they were relevant is because the Roman Empire was collapsing. This barbarian scum would never have been able to so much as cross the Danube if not for the internal problems of Rome.
     
  12. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    I actually agree with the historicity of the British UHV goal. Canada would probably work best with its current spawn if player controlled (autoplay) but later if it isn't. I'll make sure to include the possibility for something like that when reimplementing the spawn mechanic.
     
  13. Auric

    Auric Chieftain

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    How about Catholicism inventing itself in Jerusalem in the year 30 AD unless founded by another nation earlier?
     
  14. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    On the topic of Canada (and this would apply to many post-colonial civs), I'd be interested in playing Canada as a vassal of England (or France).

    In Rhye's and Fall of Europe, playing as Scotland was interesting because you had to support France (at your expense) to win your UHVs. Canada would be something similar, having to support London with troops, resources, etc. This would be historically accurate and would offer distinct gameplay possibilities (which is, I think, what Canada offers with its peace-related UHV vs other civs). The spawn of Canada then wouldn't undermine British power, but just take some of the management away.

    As Britain, at some point the player would have to be presented with the choice of granting autonomy to Canada. Staying as their master, can allow the player to reap benefits of sending settlers there, and territory and population would still count for % of domination areas, etc.

    Taking this further, of course, leads to a similar situation for a possible Australia, South Africa... and to (perhaps non-playable?) respawns for India, Indonesia, and the Congo. I would even be happy to see the United States, Mexico, Colombia, Argentina, and Brazil go through a similar process, with the difference that they would also have to fight Independence wars against their masters.

    I'm aware that this would require major changes in the mod, but I think it would be ideal as a long term solution, bringing in more historicity to the game and diversity to gameplay.
     
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Long term yes, because as you say such an approach takes more than just enabling being a vassal for humans.
     
  16. Big Heb

    Big Heb Warlord

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    Adding more barbarian cities to central Asia, and making barbarian cities (and independent cities) harder to conquer. Seeing Tibet or Korea or even China own Kashgar and Samarkand looks really awkward, and I have noticed causes those civs (especially China) to collapse too early from instability. Could put a city in Crimea to represent the Scythians, which could be conquered by the Greeks to represent their Black Sea colonization. Also Alma-Ata for Kazakhstan. Kabul or Bactra to represent Afghanistan. Mary should also spawn automatically like Samarkand, Kashgar and Dunhuang do, as otherwise it is never founded in the 3000 BC scenario. Karakorum could start as a barb city that spawns barb units rather than having barb units spawn out of nowhere.

    Also, if Persia collapses after the Alexander conquests, they should respawn again around the same time the Roman AI stacks spawn as the Parthians. I have played several Rome games and too many of them result in Rome only having Ethiopia as a trading partner. And without the Persians there, the Mesopotamian cities get destroyed by the barb camel archers, pushing Rome even closer to the population domination limit prematurely.
     
  17. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Deity

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    I presume you mean Merv when you say "Mary"?
     
  18. Big Heb

    Big Heb Warlord

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  19. Force44

    Force44 Prince

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    Mari (Syria) as a minor civ would also be pretty nice.
     
  20. Grifguz

    Grifguz Warlord

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    Perhaps Sumer like in RFCA? Like in a couple years, I'd like that.
     

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