Suggestions and Requests

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by Publicola, Jun 11, 2015.

  1. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    Yeah, I wasn’t sure if something had happened. However, changing the timeline will bottleneck a lot of this since it will require adjusting just about everything within the mod.
     
  2. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    Below is my recommendation to adjust the Ottoman spawn. Like the Russia spawn and Portuguese spawn, it’s just my opinion. Moreover, the addition of the Seljuks will change the situation considerably in Anatolia.

    my recommendation in short: move the ottoman spawn earlier to 1348; and remove Izmir from their spawn zone (see attached map).

    start date: currently the Ottomans spawn at 1356. The attached picture roughly shows Ottoman territory at 1356. The bottom right can be evened out for an easier spawn map. I prefer 1348 to give the player a few extra turns (4 if you use the new timeline), and also when the flip occurs in three turns, the second unit stack appears on Gelibolu on 1354. This is historical for the earthquake that helped enable conquest into Europe.

    Very Concise early Anatolia Timeline:
    Spoiler :

    1260’s to 1280’s - Turks push into SW Anatolia, establishing small states.
    1299 - traditional start date of ottoman state
    1300’s - Turkish invasions establish states in western and NW Anatolia.
    1325 - Ottomans capture of Brusa
    1345 - Karasi territory (above Izmir) annexed
    1361 - Edirne is captured
    Between 1377 and 1389 Izmir is captured by Ottomans (as well as some of SW Anatolia)
    1402 - Tamerlane captured Izmir
    1415 - Izmir recaptured

    the three sources I used didn’t match up exactly...

    suggestions prior to Ottoman spawn:
    The Turkish push into western Anatolia (bordering the Aegean) can be represented by barbarian Seljuk spawns between 1260’s and 1300’s. Nothing large resembling the mongol spawns, but enough to put pressure on Byzantines so that cities like Izmir can potentially be captured. This would also weaken the Seljuks, assuming they survive this far into the game (without respawning).

    conclusion:
    Spoiler :
    The current Ottoman spawn in 1356 flips all of western Anatolia, when it took some time to establish control of the area. I understand that this is to help them initially (and represent Turkish control in the area) because SOI does the same thing. I believe moving their initial spawn to 1348 will give a little more time to consolidate and more accurately represent their first conquests of Europe. An accurate 1356 spawn is a little too late in my opinion considering the flip and spawn of the extra unit stack in Gelibolu.

    I also don’t recommend the ottomans spawning any earlier since their territory is much smaller before the mid 1340’s. Their starting army would have to be smaller, and they would only have a one or two city start, which would be difficult to overcome. It would be an interesting challenge though to an experienced player: building up your small zone and conquering a weakened Byzantium starting in 1299. Maybe in an alternate scenario...

    edit: the four tiles in the bottom right of the attached image can be flipped just to make it easier to code...
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  3. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Great, thanks for these! :)
    Yeah, now that you mention, in the last games I played AI Kiev was also fairly stable until the end of the 13th century.
    The spawn of the Keshiks was intentionally set a little farther from their core in case they are played by a human, the UHVs are already a little packed for Kiev.
    Probably it would be a good thing to separate the position of the Mongol stacks between human and AI Kiev as well (the number of units is already different).
    Thanks, will look into it!
    EDIT: Yeah, that was intentional :)
    The UHV is about getting at least 6 cities in the region. Latium is part of it, and more importantly, it was an important part of Justinian's ambitions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2021
  4. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Sorry everyone, not much happened in the background in the last few months, unfortunately I had to take a bigger break from modding.
    I'm slowly getting back, but only started a couple days ago.
    The plan is still the same, finishing all the already decided/half-finished changes for a full release, then getting on with the shiny new stuff (which is also in development for a while now).
    Hopefully we can do something about forum activity as well :)
     
  5. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    Happy to see that you’re alright, and still working on the mod!

    As for Kiev, moving the mongol spawn zone sounds good. Part of my intention was to make room for a Golden Horde civ, if it was ever going to be added, so they wouldn’t appear in the midst of their own invasion.
     
  6. SanJose

    SanJose King

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    No space for Golden Horde on current map (1/3 of territory represent now)
    There are no unique mechanics and civic combo for Nomadic civs
    Crimean Khanate is best candidate for rival against slavic civs
     
  7. ganker14

    ganker14 Chieftain

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    Another feedback: I was playing as HRE, vassalized Dutch and demanded them an Atlantic Access. However, the improvement got pillaged a few turns later, and I was not receiving the resource anymore, but that did not affect my colonies production. I believe this only happens in this very particular condition, if you own the resource you're problably going to lose the production.
     
  8. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Interesting, that should not happen.
    Do you have a savegame?
    Is it possible that they had another AA somehow?
     
  9. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    Incoming long Post about potential buildings.

    I didn't think this needed an entire thread to itself, so I am posting it here. Since the timeline for the early game will be expanded, I took some time to compile a list of generic buildings that could be added to the mod. New technologies will almost certainly be added, and I think some of these suggestions can help fill the gaps provided with more gameplay.

    However, I don't think all of the suggestions below should be added. Some might be redundant, and others can cause problems by having long term cumulative effects for the game. Also, the effects are more conceptual that technical. For example, a "+1 unhappiness" effect could work better as +2, or something else entirely. I'm hoping this list will be helpful. It was interesting to dig around and look for additions.

    Here is the short list of all potential buildings divided by basic/simple ones and more complex ones for the medieval eras.
    Spoiler :

    -Simple buildings:
    Palisade
    Walls
    High walls
    Keep
    Moat
    Furrier
    Grove
    Well
    Bathhouse
    Dam
    Tax office
    Festival

    -complex buildings:
    Heavy gates/City Gatehouse
    Watchtower
    Sewer system
    Mill
    Village/Provincial Hall
    Town Hall
    City Council
    House of Parliament (national wonder)
    Estate
    Villa
    Port
    Slave Market
    Mint
    National Mint
    Scriptorium
    Monasteries* (these would be specific buildings attributed to monastic orders if they were included in some way)

    Here is a more developed and complex list of the buildings divided by bonus types and upgrades. All information is detailed here...

    Defensive and Espionage buildings:
    Spoiler :

    First, I always wanted to split the current "Walls" building into two distinct buildings: Walls and High Walls, which replaces the first Walls. This would distinguish between simpler early fortifications and more complex ones. AND uses the "Palisade" as the first building in this upgrade string, since that mod begins at the start of civilization. I don't know if it is necessary to split walls into three buildings, but since the timeline is expanding, I wanted to leave it here as a possibility anyway. It makes sense historically for early Medieval cities.

    Palisade - no requirements. A low defense bonus, perhaps 10% to 20%, albeit with such a low bonus, I'm not sure if it is worth building if stone is available, which is the point. Replaced by Walls.

    Walls - 30% defense bonus
    Requirement: Fortification (a new early game technology) or nothing. Replaced by High Walls

    High walls - 50% defense bonus
    Requirement: monument building

    Watchtower - this is an early espionage building since there are none in the game.
    Effect: +1 espionage
    Requirements: Fortification (potential new tech)
    Replaced by Night watch building in mid game? Or Keep down below.

    Moat - from AND
    Effect: +2 unhealthiness, and +20% defense?
    Requirements: Castle

    Heavy Gates/City Gatehouse - from AND
    Effect: +20% defense; +15% maintenance; helps thwart rival spies; and extra defense against espionage
    Requirements: High Walls
    Obsolete whenever castle becomes obsolete.

    Keep - another early espionage and defense building
    Effect: +2 espionage, and +15% defense, and city rebels against enemy captors longer?
    Requirement: Heraldry (potential new tech) or Chivalry?
    Replaces Watchtower?
    Obsolete whenever castle becomes obsolete.

    Stability buildings:
    Spoiler :

    This string of buildings is from the AND mod where they function as increasing local stability at the expense of maintenance. There are also other modest bonuses, but the buildings require certain culture levels and city sized to be built. I'm not sure if that's possible for this mod. Below is an example of how AND uses them. I would not recommend using the fourth or fifth for the mod.

    Village/Provincial Hall
    Effect: +1 stability, +15% maintenance
    Requirement: Militia Levy (potential new tech) and second level culture? Or none

    Town Hall - replaces Village Hall
    Effect: +1 free specialist, +25% maintenance, +1 stability
    Requirements: code of laws and civil service, city size of 4 or more, and third level culture?

    City Council - replaces Town Hall
    Effect: +2 free specialists, +35% maintenance, +1 stability, +1 great person point
    Requirements: City/Town Charter (potential new tech) or Paper? City size of 8 or more; and fourth level culture.

    Metropolitan Administration - 4th
    Capital Administration - 5th

    House of Parliament - a national wonder
    Effects: +20% great person birth rate, +1 happiness, and +3 culture?
    Requirements: Palace? City council, and common law civic to be active


    Health Buildings:
    Spoiler :

    Grove - based off AND building
    Effect: +1 health and +1 culture
    Requirement: castle
    Obsolete by Polygonal fort?

    Well - an early health building
    Effect: +1 health
    Requirements: engineering
    Replaced by aqueduct

    Bathhouse - this would be an interesting one because they were popular in medieval Western Europe until the clergy and state put them out of business. I'm not sure where to make them obsolete then
    Effect: +1 health and +1 culture
    Requirements: Sanitation (potential new tech)

    Dam - this would be useful when/if random events are brought back to the mod.
    Effect: +1 health, +1 food, and +15% maintenance (and would eliminate a flood event)
    Requirements: engineering and a city size of 4 or more.

    Sewer System - based from AND.
    Effect: If I remember correctly, AND has this prorated by population. I'm not sure if that's possible for this mode, but if so, I would have 0.15 health per population.
    Requirements: sanitation (potential new tech) and a city size of 6 or more? This would prevent a rounding error below 1.


    Wealth buildings:
    Spoiler :

    Tax office - this one is fairly straight forward, exchanging wealth for unhappiness
    Effect: +1 unhappiness and +2 gold (or 3?)
    Requirement: Usury (potential new tech)

    Mill - an early economic building
    Effect: +1 food and +1 production and +1 commerce per wheat and barley resource within city radius. Or maybe just +1 food?
    Requirements: crop rotation (potential new tech)
    Obsolete by chemistry or steam engine

    Furrier - a small wealth building from AND
    Effect: +1 happy and +1 gold
    Requirements: a camp improvement within city cross
    Obsolete by Steam Engines?

    Estate - from AND, although this is to benefit the older civic combinations like serfdom, etc.
    Effect: +2 culture and {+2 production or +2 commerce}
    Requirement: Feudalism tech. Feudal Monarchy, Serfdom, or Manorialism civic to be active; and a culture level of two.

    Villa - from AND. Meant to benefit older civics some.
    Effect: +2 commerce and +1 unhappiness
    Requirement: feudalism tech and feudal monarchy civic to be active.

    Port - taken from AND and meant to replace the Harbor building as an upgrade.
    Effect: +1 unhealthiness, and +20% trade route yield? (Or +20% commerce?)
    Requirement: Long distance trade (potential new tech)

    Slave Market - this would be a unique building for the proposed slavery civic
    Effect: +1 unhappiness, +2 production and +3 gold.
    Requirements: proposed Slavery civic to be active

    Mint - representing the many mints across medieval Europe.
    Effects: +1 commerce with silver and +2 commerce with gold? Or a flat +15% commerce?
    Requirements: standard currency (potential new tech) and blast furnace tech

    National Mint - a national wonder building
    Effect: +30% wealth, +1 great person point
    Requirements: X number of mints or markets built, and Banking tech

    Festival - from AND
    Effect: +2 culture and +1 happiness, and -2 production (or -15% production). Can turn 1 citizen into an artist.
    Requirements: Market


    Technology buildings:
    Spoiler :

    Scriptorium - from AND
    Effect: +1 science and +1 culture, and can turn I citizen into a Priest
    Requirements: Scholasticism (potential new tech) and a monastery building
    Obsolete by printing press.
     
  10. ganker14

    ganker14 Chieftain

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    Here you have a save. As you can see, the game allows me to build colonies. I checked and dutch are not trading the AA with me anymore (and the resource is pillaged), so I really have no clues...
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    When play testing the Russians and Lithuanians I noticed a lot of “Great Spearman died in combat” or whenever I received a great general, they were never named.

    I don’t know if civ specific great general names are possible or desired for the mod, but I took time to organize some names for several civs below. I tried listing them chronologically, and I looked for extras in case neighboring civs do not have as many options or if an independent city needs some. These are just suggestions...

    Eastern Europe
    Spoiler :

    Russia: 6
    Ivan Molodoy, Daniil Kholmsky, Alexander Gorbatyi-Shousky, Dmitry Pozharsky, Alexander Suvorov, and Mikhail Kutuzov

    Ukraine: 4
    Svaitoslav, Volodymyr the Great, Petro Doroshenko, and Ivan Mazepa

    Lithuania: 5
    Algirdas, Albertos Gostautas, Konstanty Ostrogski, Mikolaj the Red, and Wincenty Korwin Gosiewski

    Poland: 6
    Henry II the Pious, Boleslaw III Wrymouth, Jan Tarnowski, Jan Zamoyski, Jan Chodkiewicz, and Hieronim Augustyn Lubomirski

    Prussia: 3
    Winrich von Kniprode, Wolter von Plettenberg, and Frederick William

    Central Europe
    Spoiler :

    Hungary: 4
    Bela IV, John Hunyadi, Pal Kinizsi, and Stephen VII Bathory

    Austria: 3
    Wilhelm von Roggendorf, Don John, and Graf von Daun

    Germany: 5
    Werner von Urslingen, Georg von Frundsberg, Albrecht von Wallenstein, Count Tilly, and Jacob Flemming

    Italy (all Italian civs) 8
    Simone Doria, Castruccio Castracani, Frederico de Montefeltro, Fabrizio Maramaldo, John Hawkwood, Cesare Borgia, Jacopo Caldora, Braccio de Montone

    Sweden and Byzantium
    Spoiler :

    Sweden : 4
    Klas Horn, Jakob Bagge, Lennart Tortensson, and Carl Gustav Rehnskiold

    Byzantine: 9
    Michael Lachanodrakon, Niketas Ooryphas, Himerios, John Kourkouas, Bardas Phokas, Leo Phokas the Younger, Nikephorus Ouranos, Andronikos Kontostephanos, and Licario

    I’m not sure if any of these are already in the mod. I wasn’t sure where to search for them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
  12. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    Another mechanic that I looked at was the spawning of "Rebel Peasants" which would in effect represent bandits to peasant rebellions in the mod. I recall Absinthe liking the initial idea, as it was based off SOI's barbarian peasant unit spawns within Orthodox Anatolia. Below is my opinion of how peasant units/rebellions can be integrated within the mod.

    In general, I like the idea of a barbarian peasant unit spawning at a random low chance; and possibly modified by several factors. Below is the specifics and extra stuff.

    Historical calculations and setting
    Spoiler :

    Using Wiki as a quick metric; between the mod's timeline there were 56 total peasant rebellions. However, only 2 of which are listed as successful (the Samogitian Uprisings and the War of the Remences, both occurring in the 15th century). This means the success rate is only 3.57%.

    Peasant rebellions are a function of the middle to late game. There are only 3 listed rebellions by Wiki that occurred before the late 13th century.

    There are problems with the Wiki version. The list is clearly imperfect for the game. This doesn't count every instance of unrest; for instance, slave revolts and urban conflicts. Specifically, Al-Andalus (Cordoba) had numerous problems with Berber minorities and Mozarabs of central and northern Spain. Revolts and unrest were frequent.

    To conclude, the wiki list is to provide a generic baseline for the mod that peasant revolts are unlikely to succeed and that they began occurring in the mid game.


    Random versus historical spawning
    Spoiler :

    I prefer random barbarian units spawning than planning every single rebellion to fit within the framework of the game. This allows more dynamic gameplay where AI and human choices have consequences, albeit virtual ones. However, some more important peasant rebellions can be scripted, just like barbarian invasions.

    Also, each civ could have a "historical modifier" that increases/decreases their base chance of spawning a peasant unit. The wiki page lists each peasant rebellion out by each country. It isn't perfect, but here is a recap: Germany has the most with 8.
    4 or more rebellions: Denmark, Russia, Sweden, Austria, England, Poland, Germany, and France.
    2-3 rebellions: Hungary, Venice, and Norway.
    Every other civ had 1 or 0 peasant rebellions.
    If it helps, I could look more in depth at a few civs to give a proper percentage.


    Modifiers and Factors for peasant spawning
    Spoiler :

    What are the potential influences for peasant spawns? The simplest thing might be to have one or two small factors and a low spawn rate.
    Increase likelihood:
    High Foreign culture
    Foreign province
    Non-state religion
    High Tax rate
    City distance to palace (higher)
    Overall stability
    City unhappiness
    Civics (Guilds, Apprenticeship, Imperialism)

    Decrease likelihood:
    Civics* (feudal ones, Common Law, Free Labor)
    Low Tax Rate
    Low Foreign culture
    City happiness
    Overall stability

    *Why should feudal civics decrease the chance? The is when the Middle Ages reached their height and feudal society was beginning to change, I.e. the decline of Manorialism and serfdom. Feudal civics keep everything stable and static at the cost of growth and development.

    Unit issue... What unit for RFCE would work best? SOI uses a standard melee unit, a worker with a pitchfork (4 strength and +50% bonus vs mounted units). I like this unit because it is simple, weak, and effective. If there's enough of them, then they could give you some trouble.

    Here are some other suggestions in case variety is desired:
    Spoiler :

    A: 4 strength and a +25% strength in hills and forests
    B: 5 strength and a +25% vs mounted units
    C: 6 strength and no bonus

    Extra issue: the potential addition of the "Slavery" civic. I think slave revolts can happen exactly as they do in SOI: a low chance of city revolts.
     
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  13. PinkPallin

    PinkPallin Warlord Supporter

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    Too many "condottieri" to list them all. Among the most reknown were for sure Bartolomeo Colleoni, Gattamelata and Francesco Sforza. I agree about Federico da Montefeltro, Giovanni Acuto (so John Hawkwood was known in Italy), Cesare Borgia and Braccio da Montone, keeping the others only if there's room. And I wouldn't choose the rather unknown Simone Doria but Andrea Doria.
     
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  14. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Those building bonuses are very wonky and silly. If they get implemented i can provide some better bonuses and negatives for them.
     
  15. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Happy new year to everyone, who are still playing RFCE after all these years! :)
     
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  16. MalayanGamer

    MalayanGamer Prince

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    You're welcome.
     
  17. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    This is (hopefully) my final lingering idea for the mod. I think someone else suggested this, but I don’t think Absinthe particularly liked it. I don’t think I did either at first, but I thought of tying it with barbarian spawns. Hopefully the idea will useful for something, but this is just my opinion. Absinthe can do whatever he wants.

    It’s including “colonial projects” for Russia... My main concern is that it could be a headache to code in since it only marginally affects 2-5 players in the game. Technically the Ottomans and Crimeans could vie for one. There are two main issues if this is desired: what colonial projects should be available, and what requirements are needed.

    Purpose and idea in short: include two colonial projects; one of which upon completion stops barbarian spawns in eastern provinces from the steppe, rather than solely relying on python spawns.

    Details
    Spoiler :
    Resource Options for the colonial access point
    1. A physical resource similar to the Atlantic Access that would require an improvement. For example: Asian Access, Eastern Route, etc. and would require a “Trading Post” improvement.
    2. No physical resource. The “projects” to build are dependent on controlling specific provinces (I’m not sure if this is possible).
    Where to place the two land access resources? I would prefer one at the eastern edge of Donets province and one at the edge of Nizhny Novgorod province. Both would be at the eastern edge of the map. The reason I like two in those specific spots to mimic control of each location before Russia expanded eastward.

    What projects would be suitable? Maybe two important ones:
    1. The Volga Basin. This represents Russian conquest of the Astrakhan and Kazan Khanates in 1556 and 1552 respectively.
    Requirements: control of both access resources or just one.

    Other requirements: specific technology?

    Bonus/effect: ends all steppe barbarian spawns; sheep; better mercenaries?
    1. Siberia. This represents the conquest of Siberia from 1605-1689.
    requirements: Volga Basin completion and one eastern access point.

    Bonus/effect: fur, tea, timber, silk, gems?

    The lesser important ones that I don’t believe would be needed due to redundancy:

    The Steppe: northern and western Kazakhstan.

    Pacific Coast/Kamchatka/Far East/Manchuria.

    Northern Russia side note: During all of my play testing I have never seen anyone settle Arkhangelsk before, and I have only seen Ustyug settled once. They seem fairly useless to settle.

    At first I wanted to suggest an independent spawn of Ustyug in 1212 to curb Novgorod’s desire to settle out there, but would it be better to make most of the snowy forest tiles impassable above Vologda and east of Karelia? I have seen a few far away units “lost” up there. I added an independent Ustyug and that seemed to work fine.
     
  18. artyom

    artyom Warlord

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    I've put like 60 hours into this mod and I swear, every time you think you're having the best game possible, you start getting cities collapsing. The stability mechanics are completely anti intuitive. Latest game with Spain I hover over 30 stability and cities only in contested areas, not a single one in "foreign". I take Caen from the English, give them to my vassal Burgundy, stability is still 20-25. About 5 turns later I take another french city and give it to burgundy. Few turns later my stability goes to -10

    And this crap happens in every game I play. When I play as England and conquer scotland, scots declare independence. When I play as Prussia, lithuania gets independence. As Russia, Kiev grants independence. Playing as Austria I am doing great and conquer krakow (which is in contested area) and a few turns later it declares independence... And in every single scenario, the stability spikes are just huge: you're on +20 stability one turn, then 5 on the next, and then -10 the next and thats when you lose cities.

    and ive played this mod a crapton. But every time I quit simply due to these stability reasons. I can never have a real "war" experience where I can get a late game war of spain vs germany, or prussia vs france, etc, because something happens which I cannot control and my crap starts collapsing.

    I cant imagine how much even more annoying it must be for new players. Stability is very poorly explained. There are no guides. The numbers are useless. The better you are doing, the worse the stability, and vice versa.
     
  19. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Yeah, some of this criticism is valid, at least occasional stability fluctuation came up a couple times before.
    It's definitely not intentional, but for some reason I don't experience this in any of my games, so it's very hard to catch what is the cause... if there is a hidden bug, or if it's even a flaw in the current system?
    I was even thinking, that maybe this is because of a different playstyle? Or I unintentionally avoid it because I'm more familiar with every little aspect of the mod, and do not notice what I'm doing in my games is not intuitive at all? What's against the latter one is that AFAIK only a couple players experience this.

    PS: There is a stability guide in the Civilopedia.
    I would even say that the RFCE stability guide is one of the most direct ones among the RFC-mods, giving all aspects of potential stability changes to the player, without any hidden factors.
     
  20. KeeperOT7Keys

    KeeperOT7Keys did nothing wrong

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    imho expanding outside your areas are punished too heavily, just 5 cities can make your whole empire unstable. That will sound weird but imho you should be able to leverage some legitimacy on the foreign areas by controlling the core of that civ.
    E.g. I am Cordobans and I conquered the whole Iberia, roleplay-wise I am like the rightful emperor of Spaniards too. If I manage to secure 90% culture on core Spain areas maybe I should get legitimacy on their other historic areas as well, like low countries.

    This is borderline EU4 territory but in all my games I play for expansion rather than UHVs, and there is a completely imaginary line between me and my world conquest that I can do nothing and at this point I create a new save.
     

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