Suggestions for 1.185

[Tigranes]

Rhye has indicated that RFC will be patched as a first priority after his return. Lets collect here all the things each of us feels nessesary to include in the new patch. I will try to summarize all the proposed changes in this openning post for a quicker reference. The actual posts will contain all the details, therefore.

Tigranes:
1. Introduce new strategic resource for Gunpowder units (replace with Cotton, maybe).
2. If one to keep Cotton, give Cotton second bonus (+1 health with Market or Hospitals).
3. Address the Exploit with collapsing a civ with multiple civic changes. Civic/Religion change should be very expensive.
4. UHV Wonders' lock does not seem to work.


-Perceval-
1. Stronger independants and natives
2. Less probability to collapse but more chance to see some of our cities becoming independants and more chance to see an old civilization come back in our territory if we are unstable
3. Stronger Aztecs
4. More agressive mongols and persians.
5. More chance to see the civilization build their own wonders
6. More stable german empire in 600 ad games
7. No bonus tech searching for europeans

-The Q-Meister-
1. More unstable Mongolia
2. More European activity (colonization/wars/vassals) in Asia


-AnotherPacifist-
1. Mali start out with code of laws and fishing, while Arabia could do without fishing
2. Khmer should have Feudalism but not machinery.
3. Inca should have monarchy, while Aztecs should not have calendar but have monarchy also.
4. America should have any tech that is known by 2 civs already (in particular, scientific method).
5. AI to found a capital that is different every time
6. Fix the independent conquerors for 3000 BC starts (when Maya collapses their cities should be barbs or native)
7. Give maces to machinery and give crossbows to an earlier tech.
8. Everybody should have code of laws, especially if they spawn late (> 600 AD).

-Star15389-
1. Historical Vassals (India to England, Mali to France, Aztec to Spain)
2. Spain more likely to get conquerors.
3. Less advanced Chinese.
4. More advanced Japan.
5. An Iron resource for France and another food resource for Paris.
6. More aggressive and sustained English colonization.

-Zagoroth-
1. Replace the historically important resources with improved resources of the same type

-Wessel V1-
1. Replace food for iron for Paris

-Panoptikon-
1. Change American AI behaviour/settler map
2. Reduce 600 AD Byzantine AI's tendency to build Notre Dame
3. The UK's dynamic name should be "British Empire" even under Rep/Suffrage governments.
4. Colonial cities (i.e. outside normal area) should be more likely to declare independence under master's instability.
5. American UP should spread religion from immigrants.
6. Implement RealCapitals mod.
7. Paint the River Spree beside Germany's starting point
8. Replace Celtic Lugdunum with Massilia in the 3000 BC start.

-Tibur753-
1. China's GP to influence GP rate
2. Egypt to start with Great Engeneer

 

[Tigranes]

To begin with my suggestions, I would highly recommend to introduce sulfur or saltpeter as a new strategic resource needed for all the gunpowder before the modern era. To quote Wikipedia:

During the 19th century and until around World War I, potassium nitrate was produced on an industrial scale, first by the Birkeland–Eyde process in 1905, and then later from ammonia produced by the much more efficient Haber process. The latter process came online during World War I, and supplied Germany with nitrates critical for the warfare that it otherwise had no access to because the deposits of natural nitrate in Chile were in British hands. It is assumed that this prolonged World War I. Today practically all nitrates are produced with ammonia from the Haber process.

Seriously, think about it. One can build nothing but Warriors, Archers and ... Musketman(?) without any resource. Doesn't it sound strange? RFCE has a sulfur as a strategic resource which look nice and make sense in the game. Another quote:

As early as the 11th century, the government of the Song Dynasty was concerned that foreign enemies might break its monopoly on gunpowder technology. In 1067, the Song government prohibited the people from selling to foreigners any form of sulfur or saltpeter. In 1076 the Song government went further, issuing a ban on all private commercial transactions involving saltpeter and sulfur, for fear that they would be sold across borders, and creating a government monopoly on their production and commercial distribution.

I understand that RFC map already full with all kinds of resources. Possible solution:

Replace Cotton with Gunpowder. Do we really need another luxury resource? It can retain the same land bonuce as Cotton though.

 

[-Perceval-]

Ok i have psted it in the "minor suggestions tread but if somebody has create this topic...


This message is for Rhye

Ok, i played some games(and test some things with world editor) and i think(i think) that these changes could be very good for the gameplay. They are realist and little changes. I don't put Big changes because i know that the next version will only be a sort of patch and that we are not going to see big gameplay changes(as you said in the "what shall we reshearch next" topic). So the change are:


-Stronger independants and natives(especially in Shiraz, Samarkand and Chichen Itza in the 600 ad Rfc where they are always destroyed by barbarians and maybe it could be cool to add one city in north america to represent pueblo or sioux and to make the west conquest more realistic and more hard for the USA, add the Bandar Brunei (as sadomacho said) could be interesting too)

-Less probability to collapse but more chance to see some of our cities becoming independants and more chance to see an old civilization come back in our territory if we are unstable.(This could prevent the half world independants when russia or turkish collapse, personally i prefer(and i think it is more fun for the gameplay) to see persia or arabian come back in turkish territory than see the turkish completely collapse).

-Stronger Aztecs (and maybe incans). It could be easy to do it by adding them 2 more units and the paper technology(paper with the astronomy was one of the only thing where the aztecs was equal/superior to the europeans..Do not remove it to them please.Maybe make the calendar more expansive for the other civ could be a good idea too).

-More agressive mongols(espacially against china), in the last version(in 600 ad) they generally still a very weak power during all the game.

-More agressive persia in 3000 bc(to see more greek/persian wars; maybe by adding them mathematics? In all case a persian civ who is more present in the europe politic (instead of persian civ who generally stay in the desert) could be a great thing for the gameplay).

-Maybe more chance to see the civilization build their own wonders (by example france should build notre-dame more frequantly ect...)

-More stable german empire in 600 ad games, they always collapse and be invade by little powers like nederlands and rarely stay in the end of the game(france have this problem sometimes).

-No bonus tech searching for europeans(the proximity of civ is enough and more historically correct. And it will make the other civ(japan, american especially) more dangerous for europeans and more historically correct; see the technological level that american and japanese can attempt today! ps:it not means that they should have a tech bonus; just delete european bonus will be enough)

-maybe add this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downlo...=file&id=12178)

I know that this is a lot of changes but this is just a suggestion. In all case, i think that this mod stay the better mod for Civilization 4.

 

[Tigranes]

It always puzzled me, how come that all the resources get second bonus ability as game progresses, but Cotton only has 1 Happy face bonus for the entire game. I think it's inconsistent with the rest of the luxury resources. Cotton made clothes are healthy clothes and Hospitals need Cotton too, so maybe starting from modern era Markets could sell Cotton clothes and people healthy or Hospitals could use Cotton for bandages. This is of course if no one agrees that saltpeter is more important that Cotton...

 

[Tigranes]

This is a picture from Russian Emperor game. The World War has just started. Germany, with a very high score, just teched Fashism, changed civics to Nathionhood/Occupation, became the Third Reich, sided with the Spain and declared on Russia and Britain, with America staying neutral.

Spoiler :

What can possibly ruin this nice historically accurate picture? Human exploits, of course. One don't need to fight long and tough war with the huge German army. All you need is some 1000 spy points. No water poisoning or angry cities (which is at least more realistic). Just change civics. You need 3000 points to steal a tech, but with only 600*2 points you can change Third Reich back to Emancipation and Free Speach. Anarchy stability hit makes them to collapse imidiately. I think that civic/religion change must be the MOST EXPENSIVE mission you can undertake with the foreign civ. How many times did spies changed the State Religion for the entire nation? I belive this possibility is a serious exploit and needs to be made at least harder to implement.

 

[Tigranes]

The proof:

Spoiler :

 

[The Q-Meister]

Good ideas:

I actually think Mongolia is pretty aggressive as is and can grow huge over time but I guess what you mean is for Mongolia to grow faster quicker and become huge in a relatively short amount of time.

I also think Mongolia should be much more unstable as I see Mongolia coming into the modern era far too often than it should. But then again if point 1 is followed then they'd probably be much less stable.

Agree 100% with Persia and Rome too should be much more aggressive. Wars between AI Persia and Rome should be far more common though this might be difficult to implement.

I would like to see more European activity (colonization/wars/vassals) in Asia.

 

[Rhye]

More aggressiveness is easy to say - but how to implement? I have an idea (unlocking some situations in which AI feels in danger, as I already did to revert BTS changes) but I'm not sure it will work.

Side note:
I'm not doing anything as long as our problem with Wikipedia is not fixed:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8050555&postcount=25

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

I agree with Tigranes suggestion about cotton, except it should probably have a health bonus with hospital and a happiness bonus with market (cotton clothes are more comfortable than healty, in my opinion, plus cotton would already have a bonus with hospitals).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Mali should really start out with code of laws and fishing, while Arabia could do without fishing (I don't think the Arabs fished a lot since they were mostly desert people, right?).

Khmer should have Feudalism but not machinery.

Inca should have monarchy, while Aztecs should not have calendar but have monarchy also.

And finally, if it's even possible, America should have any tech that is known by 2 civs already (so it'll be as advanced as its neighbors on spawn), and the most advanced civs are usually its neighbors like the Dutch and English. In particular, scientific method should be known by the 13 colonies.

And something completely unrelated: how about allowing the AI to found a capital that is different every time (as long as they found it the first move)? Berlin, Tenochtitlan, Madrid and Delhi can all use a little improvement (maybe on the coast). And if Amsterdam isn't always founded, it may provoke more wars between them and the French/Germans.

 

[star15389]

-Vassals more likely to be historical. India to England, Mali to France, Aztec to Spain, etc.
-Spain more likely to get conquerors. As it is this almost never happens.
-Less advanced Chinese? In 600AD they're often just barely behind the Euros and end up as a very significant power when they should be highly vulnerable.
-More advanced Japan. I've never seen it ahead of the Euros by the Industrial Revolution, even if it often is before then.
-An Iron resource for France! There are iron deposits on both sides of the Rhine, so why not just put it one space W of Frankfurt's Iron? Paris should also have another food resource in its fat cross, since right now AI France builds too many workshops, and gives the Wheat and Corn to other cities.
-More aggressive and sustained English colonization. By 1900, England should be absolutely enormous, yet it never has more than a few cities in Canada or Australia, and maybe one city in India. The Spanish AI is much better about settling a goodly portion of its historical colonies, and actually attacks the Natives/Indies in Africa, which should be other Euros' job. Is Latin America much higher on Spain's SettlerMap than the western parts of Canada and Australia are for England, or is it something else?

 

[Zagoroth]

I have made this suggestion once before, but I thought I would do it again. I think that we need to replace the historically important resources in Central America, South America, Indonesia, Australia, and India with improved resources of the same type. That is the large amount of silver in South America could be called Potosi Silver, from the Potosi mines. Same concept for Indonesia/ spice islands, make their spice resources better. This would make colonization in general much more useful, and less of a strain on economy.

 

[Zagoroth]

star15389:

The Chinese were much more powerful than Europe through all the way until the colonization of Africa and America so the boost is important.
Also, Japan was way behind Europe prior to the Meiji Restoration, cerca 1868-1900's, as the Tokugawa Shogunate kept itself away from new ideas and foreigners. Usually Japan, in my games, shoots ahead in score to near the Europeans once it starts to conquer land not on the main island of Japan, again historically accurate.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

-Less advanced Chinese? In 600AD they're often just barely behind the Euros and end up as a very significant power when they should be highly vulnerable.

I disagree. China was way ahead of tech until about 1600 AD compared to the Euros. Gunpowder (1000 AD), paper (100 AD), compass (200 BC) and printing press (1000 AD) were invented in China way before the timeline in RFC. For the 600 AD UHV you have to give them music and civil service, and feudalism for them to be able to counter the Mongol horde. You don't want to substitute Engineering for Feudalism because otherwise it'll go for Notre Dame too soon.
It usually stagnates because the AI doesn't know to whip its economy in shape or go for the needed scientific advances, which rather mirrors real history.
Some Chinese must have added all these inventions to the wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

 

[The Q-Meister]

star15389:

The Chinese were much more powerful than Europe through all the way until the colonization of Africa and America so the boost is important.
Also, Japan was way behind Europe prior to the Meiji Restoration, cerca 1868-1900's, as the Tokugawa Shogunate kept itself away from new ideas and foreigners. Usually Japan, in my games, shoots ahead in score to near the Europeans once it starts to conquer land not on the main island of Japan, again historically accurate.

Thanks I was about to say something myself. In fact if you take a look at the entire span of Chinese history, it was only a relatively brief period when they would not be considered an advanced, global power.

Historical vassals are interesting but can be hard to implement due to the dynamic nature of civs in some games collapsing (e.g. India) while other times they remain. Aztecs should be conquered by Spain, not vassalized btw. Spain wanted to destroy all remnants of Aztec culture/religion so much they would build Christian churches and cathedrals directly on top of Aztec temples. Similar to what was done to Islamic mosques during the reconquista.

 

[Wessel V1]

Paris should absolutely not have any more food resources, rather replace one of them with iron, so that the AI won't assign so many specialists anymore. That would both help Mali (for the UHV) and France (for the AI)

 

[The Q-Meister]

I disagree. China was way ahead of tech until about 1600 AD compared to the Euros. Gunpowder (1000 AD), paper (100 AD), compass (200 BC) and printing press (1000 AD) were invented in China way before the timeline in RFC. For the 600 AD UHV you have to give them music and civil service, and feudalism for them to be able to counter the Mongol horde. You don't want to substitute Engineering for Feudalism because otherwise it'll go for Notre Dame too soon.
It usually stagnates because the AI doesn't know to whip its economy in shape or go for the needed scientific advances, which rather mirrors real history.
Some Chinese must have added all these inventions to the wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

Agreed.

In fact I think a more compelling case could be made for the Europeans being too advanced pre-1600 when compared to the Chinese historically.

 

[Zagoroth]

Would a solution be to have the Chinese have a bonus to technology prior to the renaissance, similar to what the Mayans have? To go along with this give Europe no bonus, or lesson their research rate, prior to the renaissance. This would show the dynamic shift in power.

 

[star15389]

I don't have a problem with China being somewhat advanced prior to colonization, the problem is they don't fall meaningfully behind by that point. The problem with Japan is that it starts off ahead of the Euros (debatable), then falls behind (yes), but doesn't catch back up unless it conquers China, which due to the fact that China is only weaker than Japan when it collapses, is very rare.

I would debate China being so much more advanced than the Europeans prior to 1600. The Chinese did discover those things before the Euros (the Printing Press used in China, however, was much less economical than the later European ones, it didn't break the hold of Confucian scholars on education and didn't enable an intellectual revolution), but Europe had Banking, Engineering (no castles in China), Optics, Astronomy, Education, and Replaceable Parts before China while, by even 1300, not lacking Compass, Gunpowder, Civil Service, Philosophy, or the other techs China got first. Western Europe was certainly ahead by 1500.

 

[civ_king]

I disagree. China was way ahead of tech until about 1600 AD compared to the Euros. Gunpowder (1000 AD), paper (100 AD), compass (200 BC) and printing press (1000 AD) were invented in China way before the timeline in RFC. For the 600 AD UHV you have to give them music and civil service, and feudalism for them to be able to counter the Mongol horde. You don't want to substitute Engineering for Feudalism because otherwise it'll go for Notre Dame too soon.
It usually stagnates because the AI doesn't know to whip its economy in shape or go for the needed scientific advances, which rather mirrors real history.
Some Chinese must have added all these inventions to the wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

that list is so long...