Suggestions for Barb Clan mode

Chris41336

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
84
A few thoughts I had, as this is a mode I have been dying for:

1) Way too many city states if you, like me, play with a high number already. Moving forward I will have the game start with only 1 or 2 city states and have the rest fill in from barb camps.

2) I think the camps are becoming CS too quickly. In my game I am not even at the medieval era yet and started exploring with my galleys, and have found CS who may or may not have interacted with major civs as barbs cropping up all over, arctic, etc. The passive rate to change should be reduced to the point of near zero. Player interaction should be the main driver of evolution. I want to reach the new world with some camps still in tact that perhaps I can use to attack fellow colonial powers.

3) I absolutely think that there should be some form of memory when the camp turns to a CS of who helped get it there. If one civ does all the effort to a barb camp to evolve, they should at least get an extra envoy or perhaps a one-time bonuses of the camps unit.

4) Maybe others disagree with this, but I think that a clan should have a random chance of becoming a full-fledged civ instead of just a city state. There could also be an interesting mechanic where if a barb clan takes a city from a civ, they keep the city and immediately upgrade to a civ, in addition to random chance. Perhaps there could be a modifier to increase the chance for a more well funded barb camp.

5) alternative of point 4, I think this mode should allow barbs to "raid" cities and reduce loyalty each time. This will add to the hiring dynamic, you can lower loyalty of neighbors cities by hiring barbs.

Lastly - has anyone narrowed down why sometimes camps stop forming after the first CS conversion? I'm so curious what the specific setting is that causes this so I can avoid it.
 
I completely agree with your points 1, 2 and 3. As for 4, I'd prefer if some camps turn into free cities, just like you suggested in your second post.
 
Another thought I had as I played today:

Barb Clans should be able to evolve into free cities instead of city states as an alternative.

A more advanced barb city, essentially, that still shys away from diplomacy. While others become city states.

Yeah, that's one thing I missed in my current game. Sending military expeditions to clear out islands teeming with unchecked barbarians was a fun pastime, especially if I was playing a mostly-peaceful game. But in my current game, I'm sending unescorted Settlers to colonize wild Arctic islands without fear.

Well, not much fear. I guess an AI Civ might declare war while those guys were en route, but it's not a huge risk. Without this mode, you could never be quite certain that you wouldn't run into a random Barbarian quadrireme in the unsettled parts of the map or something.
 
2) I think the camps are becoming CS too quickly

For a game mode named Barbarian Clans Mode, it is quite ironic to not found any remaning Barbarian Clans in the medieval era, because all of them are now City-States.

The passive rate to change should be reduced to the point of near zero. Player interaction should be the main driver of evolution.
I think it should varie depending some conditions, a condition being the biome or something. In the livestream, I believe the team said that the Food tiles surrounding the Barbarian Clans speed up their conversion into City-State. It could also work the other way arround: the lack of Food prevent them to convert into City-State. Which means:
  • High food tiles (grassland, rainforest, marsh, ressources...) will quickly convert into City-State. You have to do everything to prevent them to convert (more than 11 Food in 1-tile radius).
  • Medium food tiles (plains, tundra, coast, no ressource...) will slowly convert into City-State (between 6 and 10 Food in 1-tile radius)
  • Low food tiles (desert, snow) will never convert into City-State on its own (less than 5 Food in 1-tile radius).
The same could be done with Production and how active the clan is.

I absolutely think that there should be some form of memory when the camp turns to a CS of who helped get it there. If one civ does all the effort to a barb camp to evolve, they should at least get an extra envoy or perhaps a one-time bonuses of the camps unit.

True. Right now, all Barbarian Clans that spawn think I am the first civilization that met them, and I gain 1 free Envoy everytime, 2 free Envoys with the Diplomatic League policy card. I am just 1 Envoy away from suzerain and free Era Score. But this also leads to some City-State management: I would love to be able to take control of a City-State like a puppet state without being mine, so I could do some Dam / Canal or some optimal change in their border.

4) Maybe others disagree with this, but I think that a clan should have a random chance of becoming a full-fledged civ instead of just a city state. There could also be an interesting mechanic where if a barb clan takes a city from a civ, they keep the city and immediately upgrade to a civ, in addition to random chance. Perhaps there could be a modifier to increase the chance for a more well funded barb camp.
Why not. But where in the tech/civic tree should the Barbarian civilization starts? From 0? From where the captured city were? From the current world era? How it will catch up with infrastructure, since districts are costlier? Are they not condamn to stay always behind? Is this not abusable in regular gameplay? What civ should be taken? Being random? Linked to the UU they have? Even if the UU is obsolete?
This rise a lot of question, and I am not halfway done!
 
For a game mode named Barbarian Clans Mode, it is quite ironic to not found any remaning Barbarian Clans in the medieval era, because all of them are now City-States.


I think it should varie depending some conditions, a condition being the biome or something. In the livestream, I believe the team said that the Food tiles surrounding the Barbarian Clans speed up their conversion into City-State. It could also work the other way arround: the lack of Food prevent them to convert into City-State. Which means:
  • High food tiles (grassland, rainforest, marsh, ressources...) will quickly convert into City-State. You have to do everything to prevent them to convert (more than 11 Food in 1-tile radius).
  • Medium food tiles (plains, tundra, coast, no ressource...) will slowly convert into City-State (between 6 and 10 Food in 1-tile radius)
  • Low food tiles (desert, snow) will never convert into City-State on its own (less than 5 Food in 1-tile radius).
The same could be done with Production and how active the clan is.



True. Right now, all Barbarian Clans that spawn think I am the first civilization that met them, and I gain 1 free Envoy everytime, 2 free Envoys with the Diplomatic League policy card. I am just 1 Envoy away from suzerain and free Era Score. But this also leads to some City-State management: I would love to be able to take control of a City-State like a puppet state without being mine, so I could do some Dam / Canal or some optimal change in their border.


Why not. But where in the tech/civic tree should the Barbarian civilization starts? From 0? From where the captured city were? From the current world era? How it will catch up with infrastructure, since districts are costlier? Are they not condamn to stay always behind? Is this not abusable in regular gameplay? What civ should be taken? Being random? Linked to the UU they have? Even if the UU is obsolete?
This rise a lot of question, and I am not halfway done!

Yeah, it feels like the clans in the tundra and ice are more likely to convert, just because they're more remote, they don't have as many people dealing with them. So, say the timer needed 200 "points" to convert to a CS. If an Arctic clan only gained 1 point a turn, then it's going to take them 200 points without outside influence. If the medium food cities took, say, 100 turns (so 2 points/turn), and the high food ones took 50 (4 points/turn), that would at least cause the CS to grow more in better spots. Again, raiding/inciting/hiring/etc... can adjust those rates.

I think the barbarian civ is always the last (or first?) in turn order, with the human next. So yeah, if a clan converts and you have visibility, then you'll count as the first to meet them presumably. Ideally yeah it would be cool if whatever civ was the most influential in converting got the free envoy. But otherwise, I just treat it like a small bonus for being the human player.

And otherwise, turning to a full civ is probably a little tough, but certainly would love to see them capture cities and turn them to be a free city. Really, I feel that should be the general barbarian behavior. Or maybe it would be something like - if city <= pop 2 and no districts constructed, then razed. Else, when a barbarian captures it, all districts are auto-pillaged but the city becomes a free city. I could see another mode where free cities can band together to become full civs, and at that point, if you added that, then you could figure out answers to those other questions. But I'm fine keeping that separate from the Clans mode.
 
For a game mode named Barbarian Clans Mode, it is quite ironic to not found any remaning Barbarian Clans in the medieval era, because all of them are now City-States.


I think it should varie depending some conditions, a condition being the biome or something. In the livestream, I believe the team said that the Food tiles surrounding the Barbarian Clans speed up their conversion into City-State. It could also work the other way arround: the lack of Food prevent them to convert into City-State. Which means:
  • High food tiles (grassland, rainforest, marsh, ressources...) will quickly convert into City-State. You have to do everything to prevent them to convert (more than 11 Food in 1-tile radius).
  • Medium food tiles (plains, tundra, coast, no ressource...) will slowly convert into City-State (between 6 and 10 Food in 1-tile radius)
  • Low food tiles (desert, snow) will never convert into City-State on its own (less than 5 Food in 1-tile radius).
The same could be done with Production and how active the clan is.



True. Right now, all Barbarian Clans that spawn think I am the first civilization that met them, and I gain 1 free Envoy everytime, 2 free Envoys with the Diplomatic League policy card. I am just 1 Envoy away from suzerain and free Era Score. But this also leads to some City-State management: I would love to be able to take control of a City-State like a puppet state without being mine, so I could do some Dam / Canal or some optimal change in their border.


Why not. But where in the tech/civic tree should the Barbarian civilization starts? From 0? From where the captured city were? From the current world era? How it will catch up with infrastructure, since districts are costlier? Are they not condamn to stay always behind? Is this not abusable in regular gameplay? What civ should be taken? Being random? Linked to the UU they have? Even if the UU is obsolete?
This rise a lot of question, and I am not halfway done!

Re: becoming a civ, I suppose you are right! Perhaps it could only work if th y actually take a city?

However free cities might be a better compromise. I think if it can go either free city or City State depending on how it evolves would be cool. EG mainly peaceful buying of units would slowly make a city state, but inciting alot would foster a free city.
 
I think it should varie depending some conditions, a condition being the biome or something. In the livestream, I believe the team said that the Food tiles surrounding the Barbarian Clans speed up their conversion into City-State. It could also work the other way arround: the lack of Food prevent them to convert into City-State. Which means:
  • High food tiles (grassland, rainforest, marsh, ressources...) will quickly convert into City-State. You have to do everything to prevent them to convert (more than 11 Food in 1-tile radius).
  • Medium food tiles (plains, tundra, coast, no ressource...) will slowly convert into City-State (between 6 and 10 Food in 1-tile radius)
  • Low food tiles (desert, snow) will never convert into City-State on its own (less than 5 Food in 1-tile radius).
The same could be done with Production and how active the clan is.
I fully support this. Particularly it feels really glaring to have all those city states sitting in the extreme polar regions. Very much opposite of what a city state is supposed to represent imo.
 
A few thoughts I had, as this is a mode I have been dying for:

1) Way too many city states if you, like me, play with a high number already. Moving forward I will have the game start with only 1 or 2 city states and have the rest fill in from barb camps.

2) I think the camps are becoming CS too quickly. In my game I am not even at the medieval era yet and started exploring with my galleys, and have found CS who may or may not have interacted with major civs as barbs cropping up all over, arctic, etc. The passive rate to change should be reduced to the point of near zero. Player interaction should be the main driver of evolution. I want to reach the new world with some camps still in tact that perhaps I can use to attack fellow colonial powers.

3) I absolutely think that there should be some form of memory when the camp turns to a CS of who helped get it there. If one civ does all the effort to a barb camp to evolve, they should at least get an extra envoy or perhaps a one-time bonuses of the camps unit.

4) Maybe others disagree with this, but I think that a clan should have a random chance of becoming a full-fledged civ instead of just a city state. There could also be an interesting mechanic where if a barb clan takes a city from a civ, they keep the city and immediately upgrade to a civ, in addition to random chance. Perhaps there could be a modifier to increase the chance for a more well funded barb camp.

5) alternative of point 4, I think this mode should allow barbs to "raid" cities and reduce loyalty each time. This will add to the hiring dynamic, you can lower loyalty of neighbors cities by hiring barbs.

Lastly - has anyone narrowed down why sometimes camps stop forming after the first CS conversion? I'm so curious what the specific setting is that causes this so I can avoid it.
I agree with all that you say and I'm going to be reducing the starting amount of city states that I start with as well the total number available in the pool, I also noticed that the new city states don't seem to advance at all technologically, I noticed many in the industrial era with only 20 city strength and just warriors as units.
 
A few thoughts I had, as this is a mode I have been dying for:

1) Way too many city states if you, like me, play with a high number already. Moving forward I will have the game start with only 1 or 2 city states and have the rest fill in from barb camps.

2) I think the camps are becoming CS too quickly. In my game I am not even at the medieval era yet and started exploring with my galleys, and have found CS who may or may not have interacted with major civs as barbs cropping up all over, arctic, etc. The passive rate to change should be reduced to the point of near zero. Player interaction should be the main driver of evolution. I want to reach the new world with some camps still in tact that perhaps I can use to attack fellow colonial powers.

3) I absolutely think that there should be some form of memory when the camp turns to a CS of who helped get it there. If one civ does all the effort to a barb camp to evolve, they should at least get an extra envoy or perhaps a one-time bonuses of the camps unit.

4) Maybe others disagree with this, but I think that a clan should have a random chance of becoming a full-fledged civ instead of just a city state. There could also be an interesting mechanic where if a barb clan takes a city from a civ, they keep the city and immediately upgrade to a civ, in addition to random chance. Perhaps there could be a modifier to increase the chance for a more well funded barb camp.

5) alternative of point 4, I think this mode should allow barbs to "raid" cities and reduce loyalty each time. This will add to the hiring dynamic, you can lower loyalty of neighbors cities by hiring barbs.

Lastly - has anyone narrowed down why sometimes camps stop forming after the first CS conversion? I'm so curious what the specific setting is that causes this so I can avoid it.
To expand on your point #4, this should be applied generally (not just to barb clans mode), that if a City State captures a second city, they then become a Civ.
At least in my opinion
 
I believe, distance to other civilizations of the world could also be a pressure factor on the conversion. Camps more than 10 tiles away from any populated centres of civilization have as good as no contact with the outside world, they live in their own shell, with no example, no influence, no contact. How can they become a civilized city state with sophisticated ideas on their own, without sharing ideas? All their time is probably dedicated to pure survival.

And on the contrary, camps closer to civilization have much more contacts and examples to influence their way and open their eyes to new possible ways of going forward.
The concept of pressure depending on the distance is in the game already for religion and loyalty purposes, it shouldn't be difficult to adapt it to the camp conversion purposes.

Also, raiders from the camp pillaging improved tiles of civilizations and other city states could also earn some power or conversion yields for their camp. The system for obtaining yields from pillaging is also already in the game, remains to find a way where to put the loot.
 
I think they should rework free cities a bit and make it so:

Barb Camps -> City States
Free Cities -> Grow into a random Civ (or by terrain bias). New Civs do no suffer loyalty pressure for "X" amount of turns and cause double loyalty pressure (or other multiplier) over other free cities during that period.
 
1,2 and 3: in short I agree.

4: No. I don't think that for the current mode (read with few mechanic additions/changes) a system for emerging new civs would be interesting. First emerging civs will not be a threat or a competing party. They will most probably behind in tech and culture. Even if not these civs will be easily captured by agressive civs. Or if the civs emerges on a remote island in the middle of an ocean it would probably even add much less to the game and an additional annoyance for domination and religious victory.
I am not against emerging civs idea, but this requires a proper in depth mechanic/design. The closest idea that could work for me is colonies as in civ 4, where multiple cities break away to form a new civ.

5: I am not sure about this.

Additionally, I would like a system where barb camps have 3 possible future options:
  • Barb camps ==> City-states (high chance decreases as more CS emerge)
  • Barb camps ==> Free cities (low chance increases as more CS emerge)
  • Barb camps ==> Barb camp (low food environments)
It would also be neat that free cities would inherit hire, bribe and incite interactions of barbarian clans.

Also civ 6 is the game of increments, maybe the progress bar limit should increase with each new CS that emerges.
 
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5: I am not sure about this.

Additionally, I would like a system where barb camps have 3 possible future options:
  • Barb camps ==> City-states (high chance decreases as more CS emerge)
  • Barb camps ==> Free cities (low chance increases as more CS emerge)
  • Barb camps ==> Barb camp (low food environments)
It would also be neat that free cities would inherit hire, bribe and incite interactions of barbarian clans.

Also civ 6 is the game of increments, maybe the progress bar limit should increase with each new CS that emerges.
That's a very good model also. :thumbsup:
 
A few thoughts I had, as this is a mode I have been dying for:

1) Way too many city states if you, like me, play with a high number already. Moving forward I will have the game start with only 1 or 2 city states and have the rest fill in from barb camps.

2) I think the camps are becoming CS too quickly. In my game I am not even at the medieval era yet and started exploring with my galleys, and have found CS who may or may not have interacted with major civs as barbs cropping up all over, arctic, etc. The passive rate to change should be reduced to the point of near zero. Player interaction should be the main driver of evolution. I want to reach the new world with some camps still in tact that perhaps I can use to attack fellow colonial powers.

3) I absolutely think that there should be some form of memory when the camp turns to a CS of who helped get it there. If one civ does all the effort to a barb camp to evolve, they should at least get an extra envoy or perhaps a one-time bonuses of the camps unit.

4) Maybe others disagree with this, but I think that a clan should have a random chance of becoming a full-fledged civ instead of just a city state. There could also be an interesting mechanic where if a barb clan takes a city from a civ, they keep the city and immediately upgrade to a civ, in addition to random chance. Perhaps there could be a modifier to increase the chance for a more well funded barb camp.

5) alternative of point 4, I think this mode should allow barbs to "raid" cities and reduce loyalty each time. This will add to the hiring dynamic, you can lower loyalty of neighbors cities by hiring barbs.

Lastly - has anyone narrowed down why sometimes camps stop forming after the first CS conversion? I'm so curious what the specific setting is that causes this so I can avoid it.

Rejoice! Since great minds think alike someone already moded most of your (and my) desires today.
 
4: No. I don't think that for the current mode (read with few mechanic additions/changes) a system for emerging new civs would be interesting. First emerging civs will not be a threat or a competing party. They will most probably behind in tech and culture. Even if not these civs will be easily captured by agressive civs. Or if the civs emerges on a remote island in the middle of an ocean it would probably even add much less to the game and an additional annoyance for domination and religious victory.
I am not against emerging civs idea, but this requires a proper in depth mechanic/design. The closest idea that could work for me is colonies as in civ 4, where multiple cities break away to form a new civ.

The Civ4 mod Legends of Revolution had a good solution for this: New civs could emerge from left alone Barb cities and start with the average tech and civ progress of the other civs. They could also form from already existing instable empires. They were given a couple of starting units dependent on their tech/civ development. Of course, Civ4 had no districts then but they could be given a discount depending on the era or start with Reyna and some gold. Typically these newly formed civs would go on a rampage and conquest for the first turns. This would be easier if they were given Akkad's ability to ignore city walls. Since there were often a couple of Barb cities in a region all these cities would collectively turn into a new civ. With the dramatic eras mode even left alone independent cities could form new civs.
 
I believe, distance to other civilizations of the world could also be a pressure factor on the conversion.
I like this idea, I actually find the conversion too slow in general apart from these isolated areas. I think the more Civs about the quicker they should convert and vice versa.
 
I like this idea, I actually find the conversion too slow in general apart from these isolated areas. I think the more Civs about the quicker they should convert and vice versa.
Really? I find it too fast.
  • By the time I wanted to start spending gold on Barbs rather than trying to get my infrastructure going, they'd all converted to CSs in my game.
  • Oh man, there are a lot of CSs by the medieval era...
Especially since campsmseem to stop spawning once the first gets to CS status, I wouldn't mind it going slower. Or maybe more differentiated, some faster and others slower.
 
A few thoughts I had, as this is a mode I have been dying for:

1) Way too many city states if you, like me, play with a high number already. Moving forward I will have the game start with only 1 or 2 city states and have the rest fill in from barb camps.

2) I think the camps are becoming CS too quickly. In my game I am not even at the medieval era yet and started exploring with my galleys, and have found CS who may or may not have interacted with major civs as barbs cropping up all over, arctic, etc. The passive rate to change should be reduced to the point of near zero. Player interaction should be the main driver of evolution. I want to reach the new world with some camps still in tact that perhaps I can use to attack fellow colonial powers.

3) I absolutely think that there should be some form of memory when the camp turns to a CS of who helped get it there. If one civ does all the effort to a barb camp to evolve, they should at least get an extra envoy or perhaps a one-time bonuses of the camps unit.

4) Maybe others disagree with this, but I think that a clan should have a random chance of becoming a full-fledged civ instead of just a city state. There could also be an interesting mechanic where if a barb clan takes a city from a civ, they keep the city and immediately upgrade to a civ, in addition to random chance. Perhaps there could be a modifier to increase the chance for a more well funded barb camp.

5) alternative of point 4, I think this mode should allow barbs to "raid" cities and reduce loyalty each time. This will add to the hiring dynamic, you can lower loyalty of neighbors cities by hiring barbs.

Lastly - has anyone narrowed down why sometimes camps stop forming after the first CS conversion? I'm so curious what the specific setting is that causes this so I can avoid it.

I've only played a bit of this mode, but so far I like it a lot. It feels like a completely natural addition to the game.
  1. I'm not sure a ton of city states is a big problem; you can always conquer them (a free city!).
  2. I think the pace of conversion is about right, but I will need to play more to be certain.
  3. I agree that helping a barb camp develop should give you something in the eventual CS. Even a single envoy would be great; perhaps as a benefit of choosing "bribe." If you received one eventual envoy per use of bribe that would be better still & it would compete better with hire as an option.
  4. I don't think they should become Civs, that would ultimately incentivize wiping them out to reduce competition. I like the idea of CS or a Free City better. What would be even cooler is if nearby Free Cities could band together into "Free Confederations" or something similar. In my mind they would exist halfway between a CS and a Civ. Once a critical mass of Free Cities exist within loyalty pressure range of each other, the game assigns them a randomized name & treats them as a single entity for diplomatic purposes. There would be no "leader" and diplomacy would take on a form similar to diplomacy with barbarian clans (hire / bribe / raid / etc.). They would only exert "defensive" loyalty (keeps Free Cities in the confederation from flipping, but doesn't exert pressure on actual Civs). They would maintain a "defensive aggressive" military stance and protect themselves from nearby threats. Their civ & tech level could either be handled as barbs are currently handled, or something different (gain civs / techs that are unlocked by half of the Civs currently in the game). I think this would fill in the gap between CS's and full Civs nicely, especially if you capped the amount of Free Cities in each Confederation based on map size, so there could be multiple Free Confederations on the same continent to treat with. It would be cool to send the military might of a Confederation against your opponents!
  5. I think this is a neat idea and it could lead to a civ losing a city to loyalty temporarily.
 
Really? I find it too fast.
  • By the time I wanted to start spending gold on Barbs rather than trying to get my infrastructure going, they'd all converted to CSs in my game.
  • Oh man, there are a lot of CSs by the medieval era...
Especially since campsmseem to stop spawning once the first gets to CS status, I wouldn't mind it going slower. Or maybe more differentiated, some faster and others slower.

I find some are fast and some are slow. Like i've had cases where I've barely met a camp and they're already almost converted. And other times where they just seem to sit there for forever.

But yeah, you do definitely get a bunch of new CS. In my current game, I'm just about the end of the medieval and we've added Kumasi, Chinguetti, La Venta, and Johanesburg on my continent alone (no clue if the other continent across the ocean has added any).

I will say, Tamar is a pretty strong player in the mode. I founded a religion with Papal Primacy, so if you have the "double first envoy" card plugged in, then basically you immediately get suzerainty of the CS when they appear, because the first envoy is enough to convert the size 1 city, then the doubled copy gets doubled by Tamar's ability, and you're at 3 envoys there right away.
 
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