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Suggestions on dragons, Armaggedon

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by FM_Freyland, Jun 23, 2008.

  1. FM_Freyland

    FM_Freyland Vote with your wallets!

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    Just a few thoughts or suggestions for this excellent mod.

    Two games ago I made my first dragon, Abashi of the Sheim. Extremely cool to look at, and obviously quite powerful as far as strength goes, but as I attacked my first city, I felt almost cheated. For all his good looks, he felt like just a very mobile, buffed champion. I propose we make dragons yet more powerful still. In particular, I would love to see them have a 2 unit collateral damage as well as a small chance of destroying a building if attacking a city or the improvement if attacking a plot. I know they are already very tough, and have fear, but we're talking dragons here! They're big, they are indiscriminant with those giant wings, and their tails add to the possible destruction. Heck, the initial breath weapon strike is not going to stay local to whatever their target is. I guess I am just picturing the aftermath of a dragon attack to involve burning buildings, scorched fields and generalized destruction.

    Both of the last two games I intentionally jacked up the AC to see what happened. In the first game, I thought the various events were extremely cool, even though I had to deal with all three Horseman and the Avatar. But then the AC hit 100, and lots of people died, and that was it. For some reason, it didn't feel like "the end of the world", just an inconvenience. In the second game, Hyboream joined the party, thus letting Hell terrain loose on the land. By the time the AC hit 100, Hell was all over except the two good civs, and that was a pain! I liked it! Now it felt like the world had ended. I propose that when the AC hits 100, all terrain turns to Hell, regardless of alignment. So, not only many die, but the land is crippled and cannot ever truly recover. As a side note, I would like to see more demon spawn lairs with more frequent spawns... again, that event didn't really have much impact either game. As soon as you see a demon lair, smash it with a nearby garrison and its done. I don't think they continue to appear as the AC rises, so the event is really short-lived.

    Sorry if I am rambling, and thanks for reading!

    Jonathan
     
  2. Rex rgis of Ter

    Rex rgis of Ter Me I'm a Creator

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    Dragon's getting those buffs would be nice, but only if their strength is reduced. Also, it would be nice if each dragon was made more unique from eachother. Eubrates is just a stronger version of Abashi currently.

    I rarley have AC problems, as I rarley play evil, and when I do I never try too hard to destroy it. One of the advantages of being good is no hell terrain ever. Compare this to Druids (amazing!) and Sacrifice of the Weak and it seems fair.
     
  3. psychoak

    psychoak Warlord

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    100 AC can be achieved rather quickly. Try a map with lots of room for growth and high difficulty AI. Between the barb cities being razed and various AV related spread, you're lucky if you get to turn 300 before the avatar pops. I've had quite a few games that ended around 150 when the horsemen wiped everything out. When it expands fast enough, you can end up with the avatar showing up before the first horseman has dropped. It can be a very sticky mess.
     
  4. FM_Freyland

    FM_Freyland Vote with your wallets!

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    @ Rex,

    I respectfully disagree that the dragons' strength be reduced if given those buffs. They are both late game heroes, who don't have the advantage of many turns of automatic experience accumulation but will be facing against many formidable opponents. They may start off powerful, but a bad round of combat will drop their strength enough that a powerful enough unit can overcome the 'fear' promotion and put a quick end to them. Besides, my point is that these two heroes are dragons and should rock appropriately. No arguement about making the two dragons more dissimilar, if for no other reason than this mod thrives on making a varied and exciting game experience. Perhaps Eurobates (spelling) breath weapon could have an increased chance of collateral damage and destruction (fire) and Abashi would have less chance but could have a greater chance of inflicting the 'poison' promotion on other members of the stack (his animation suggests more of an acid/poison breath). Hey, if acid, perhaps could have a chance of applying the rust promotion?

    As far as Good cultures and Hell terrain, I am only suggesting they too get nailed when The End of The World As We Know It occurs. I found it silly that the rest of the world was experiencing "Hell on Earth" while the wood elves were sitting pretty in their ancient forests. Besides, Kael notes in the manual that the AC is in place to reduce late game stagnation and create a sense of urgency. What could be more urgent than trying to save your Ancient forests? In the present system, the cultures who are supposed to raise the AC (evil) suffer more from it than the cultures who should want to reduce it.

    Jonathan
     
  5. mahazel

    mahazel Warlord

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    I completely disagree. Dragons are God creations, they schould have the same strength as Meshaber or Mitril Golem, but now dovielo War Machine has the same strange as Acheron. They schould get boost because now one Eidolon with 5 star promotion is more powerfull than new created Eurabatres. Drifta the White Dragon in Age of Ice has about 80 strength, and she is the real dragon.
     
  6. schlalex

    schlalex Warlord

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    All i can do is just repeating my suggestion about Dragons.
    Give them Collateral!! There is no other unit in FFH2, which deserves better to have this Promotion. A Dragon is just THE manifestation of Collateral Dmg!
     
  7. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    All in all, one big, powerful unit doesn't actually change the world that much. They make a great figure head to any invading army, and they will level town after town if the other nation is not prepared. The scary thing in FFH2 is that just about ANY unit can become something scary.
    Keeping that in mind, I don't see any trouble in buffing the dragons. Collateral damage would be quite proper given their size and supposed ferocity of their attacks. Would certainly make them more interesting than just being another high strength unit that takes a long time to build.
    I actually got around to building my first one of those recently. The Meshaber of Dis or whatever. He got to attack...once. By then, the entire world had already been reduced to nothing but endless expanses of empty, hellish terrain. I wish I'd gotten to use him more... :sad:
     
  8. Sensemann

    Sensemann Chieftain

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    ya, dragons should be made a little bit stronger, and the idea of collateral damage is nice. therefor, it should give more dragon slaying promotions or something.
    the hell terain should be spread earlier (e.g. AC 25: spread in evil territory instead of 50, AC 50 spread in neutral instead of 75, AC 75 spread in good instead of never).
     
  9. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I was actually planning on almost doubling their strength, and making Breathe Fire work like Pillar of Fire (which Chalid will not have) instead of making them cough up a meteor. (I'll probably change this so that Drifa's Breath Weapon is in Cold Damage instead of Fire Damage. Abashi and Eurabatres might to multiple types of Damage, the standard Fire plus unholy/death/poison or holy/poison.)

    I was thinking that it could be better to instead give them a Ranged Attack in xml, like I gave my archers but stringer and with a greater range, since the AI uses these very effectively. Then I realized that Acheron's 0 movement would make him unable to attack this way. This would be easier and better for the AI, but I'd have to let Acheron move. Would Acheron rampaging around the world be too much? I was thinking that I'd make him much more expensive, so he wouldn't show up until much later in the game (if at all).


    I was also considering giving the Dragons Blitz and Flying. (It would probably be better to make the Dragon promotion just provide these abilities, and to combine sentry and magic immune into this promotion too, to reduce clutter.)


    Of course, I would also make Dragon Slaying available, at least to Hero units.




    I'm also making the Avatars much stronger (mostly through Affinity)


    In my version, spells and/or pyPerTurn effects of promotions (Vile Touch, Unholy Taint) will increase the plot counter of the caster's plot. Thus, Evil civs can actively spread hell in good lands. I'll probably let hell normally spread in good lands at AC 90 too.
     
  10. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    :bowdown:
    Just wanted to say that that is a really, really good idea. I love the thought of evil armies leaving a trail of blighted land as they crawl their way through. What fun. Can we get this added to the unmodded FFH? Pretty please?
     
  11. eerr

    eerr Emperor

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    abashi and eurabatres
    unique collateral dmg effect-dragonfire burns
    units with "dragonfire burns" can not regain lost hp through regeneration
     
  12. Darksaber1

    Darksaber1 Secret Emperor

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    Ya, collateral damage, better breath attack should be applyed. I think they should also destroy emprovements wit their attack. After all, they are two big to realy notice that farm they just anilated. They also reprent the destuctive abilities of the gods. O, and blitz would be good. Nothings more annoying then have on the them with 4 moves still avalible, and make them have to just sit their because they already attcked. Also, maybe something like cannabalizme, since they attack with their teeth.
     
  13. MacGyverInSpace

    MacGyverInSpace Monarch

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    I think maybe the AC should scale based on score, or just for fun, since we all have back-up saves, trigger an event that lets you select the gravity of Armageddon... (in single player mostly)

    Did they take way blitz from beast units? Or is everyone forgetting the promotion system and its dynamics in FFH?
     
  14. CypherKnight

    CypherKnight Chieftain

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    You know it really bothers me that the Dragons don't actually get fly but I can get why, giant wings but not necessarily able to provide the actual lift needed for such a monstrosity.

    However I do believe that they could glide given a nice launch point. Since they can move in impassable terrain, I'm wondering if it was possible to code it so they gain a temporary fly like ability when the launch themselves from a peak. As for the mechanics, I'm thinking of a ten movement range from the origin point. Maybe it leaves them unable to move until end of turn (to represent the time flying). This could allow you to jump frog onto nearby islands given appropriate mountain placement and give some interesting strategy choices. Do I leave my dragon in front of the army or do I have him launch in the back to cut off reinforcements while the main force hammers away?

    Might need to limit this ability to full health in order to prevent the prey of dragon slaying armies from running away with it's tail between it's legs. Then again maybe not.

    As a side note, I just ordered my new laptop so I'll finally have a computer which I can bring to work to actually try doing some of this and playing with my own modmods. Can't wait!
     
  15. Farmer Bobathan

    Farmer Bobathan Sanity is for the weak

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    Maybe flying could be simulated with the airdrop mechanic from vanilla BTS just without the requirement of being in cities.
     
  16. Chip56

    Chip56 King

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    kael somewhere stated that she is strength 80 in realation to to units of age of ice.
    In "modern" FFH she would be around 20 because the armies are a lot bigger.
    Its is not one champion against a dragon its maybe 500 champions against a dragon.
    And from that point of view dragons have a reasonable strength.
     
  17. Wyrmhero

    Wyrmhero Dragon-Lord

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    I had the idea the other night about an incarnation of the seven sins. Basically, it would happen around AC 35-50 (at 2 AC increments), & moving Blight (if it still exists) to 20. At each of these increments, an angel barbarian would spawn related to the seven mortal sins: Greed, Sloth, etc.

    Sloth would mainly stay still and buff barbarians worldwide, if that's possible, giving them something like Crazed. (getting others to do its work for it)
    Lust I have no idea on. (increase in chance of Falamar events for certain, however)
    Greed would take X gold per turn from each player. (stealing and hoarding gold)
    Envy would conquer a city, and then leave it, undefended to conquer another. (taking things from others, and then wanting something else)
    Pride would make a diplomacy penalty for everyone (I'm better than you, and don't need your help)
    Wrath would increase chance of every AI declaring war (anger, obviously)
    Gluttony would take food from each city. (hoarding food)

    Alternatively, these could be unreversable penalties for every player when the AC gets high enough. Or since Wrath is one, maybe it could be a high level thing (decrease all AC events AC requirement except armageddon, and put it between 75-90)

    The basic idea is that other Angels have been tempted by evil and fallen from heaven.
     
  18. smusebaer

    smusebaer Warlord

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    Lust runs around and charms units...
     
  19. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    Location! Location!
  20. DuckAndCower

    DuckAndCower Warlord

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    I haven't messed around with the planar gate too much, so maybe that's why I'm not seeing the connection... help me out here.

    Succubus: Lust
    Chaos Marauder: Closest I can think of is Wrath
    Tar Demon: No idea...

    I don't even know of anything else that comes out of the Gates
     

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