Sullla's AI Survivor Season Eight - Playoff Game 1

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Sullla's AI Survivor Season 8 continues Friday, August 30th on Sullla's Twitch Channel at noon EDT.

The playoffs begin with leaders who are largely high peaceweight, Financial, and ostensibly peaceful builders. Gilgamesh is a traditional warmonger, while Hammurabi could display some aggression as well. Though the season would suggest more conflict than one may suppose, the geography is pretty stark: Three Financial leaders each in their own corner seriously skews the game toward spaceship/cultural. And, aside from Lincoln, the field is fairly competitive. In the fantasy contest, Eauxps has Lincoln, and Kjotleik has Gilgamesh and Pacal.

Playoff Game One Roster.png


Watch the preview here, read up on the game here, and join in the fun by making your predictions here. (You can check out the current picks here). All are welcome to discuss the game in this thread and follow along for what will hopefully continue to be a dynamic and entertaining season!

And if one contest just isn't enough, check out the friendly picking game presented by @Fippy (AKA My)!
 
From an abstract perspective, cross-map picks seem likely to dominate, partly due to peace weight and then racking up points in the corners. While Mansa Musa may look vulnerable due to an uninspiring start and proximity to Gilgamesh, he has the land to develop if ignored. The burden is more on Gilgamesh and my favorite totally unjustifiably successful oddball Hammurabi to crash into their neighbors and find the momentum to contest first or second.

There are few things in Lincoln's favor, but I can think of a couple. First, I have noticed that other leaders can have odd success when paired with the American civilization. This would seem counterintuitive due to the late uniques, but I suspect it frees up the the research queue for much of the game. Second, this pairs well with Lincoln's Science flavor, an uncommon research flavor for the AI. Unfortunately for him, I doubt Science flavor can cut it against three Financial leaders. Overall, he seems more likely as first-to-die or a number in high peaceweight dogpiles.
 
Last edited:
Announcement up on Main page. Thanks, Sax!
 
First glance at the game...
What an uninteresting game. Such an obvious Mansa roflolstomp.

Second look at the game...
Yeah, Mansa all the way. Sulla is definitely trolling when he says he doesn't like his starting position and extols Pacal's instead. He's 100% picking Mansa, and hoping to con some hapless souls into a Pacal pick.

Third examination of the game...
Yup, most definitely a Mansa game.
Although... Hang on a minute, there!

Spoiler Game Thoughts :

Lincoln
Totally irrelevant.
Weak, with no impact whatsoever on the game. Not even a decent candidate for FTD.
Best he can hope is to somehow sneak into a weak and undeserved second place finish, which I bloody hope won't happen as no way I'm picking him, and Lincoln in a Championship game would be a sad thing indeed.

Gilgamesh
A strong leader. The best warmonger, alongside Shaka.
But, boy, is the deck stacked against him here!
The overall diplomatic situation is bad for him, sure, but there's Pacal, and Gilgamesh is one of the few leaders who can pull off a win consistently in such a situation.
But he's not bordering Pacal: he's surrounded by enemies.
His biggest issue, though, is his starting position: dry or jungle-covered, with no commerce or happiness until Iron Working + Calendar. Oh, and he's one of the few leaders with no Ivory: have fun with those early wars, buddy!
He'll either stop expanding or crash his economy, and will limp out of the expansion phase as a weakling. His only saving grace is that his number one foe on this map (Lincoln) will be the other weakling of the game.

Mansa Musa
He'll be damn strong here, with lots of room to peacefully expand into, and no threat whatsoever: a weak Gilgamesh on one border, and Hammurabi who'll be busy with Pacal on the other border.
I'm certain that he'll be the top performer by a mile in the AH.
But is he actually the favourite to win? More on this later...

Elizabeth
She'll be boxed-in hard and weak.
No choice but to build tall, pile in wonders and religions. The horror.
Oh wait.

Hammurabi
He'll also be strong here.
He'll have two enemies on his borders: Gilgamesh and Pacal. But those should probably be seen rather as potential conquests.
His biggest issue just might be Mansa: if they're not religious allies (a distinct possibility), a fatal backstab could be incoming...

Pacal
Yes, he'll be strong early game.
And I believe he's the key player in this game.
I also believe he doesn't stand a sliver of a chance of winning.

So, Pacal will fight Hammurabi and Lizzy.
A predictable 1v2 situation is usually bad, but... Pacal will be strong. Lizzy will be weak. Hammurabi will be exposed to backstabs (Mansa, Gilgamesh).
So Pacal losing is very much not a given. I'd say it's a coin flip.

If he wins that fight, then Mansa wins the game.
No way Pacal can launch or reach Domination before Mansa wins by Culture. Same if it's a miracle day for Gilgamesh.
So Pacal second, and probably Hammurabi FTD in that case, as the most likely reason for Pacal winning would be Mansa backstabbing Hammy (Gilgamesh FTD also a strong possibility as Pacal could win because Hammy is busy with Giggles).

If Pacal loses that fight, though... then Elizabeth wins the game.
Pacal is essentially Lizzy's only threat. If he goes under, she lives. And if she lives, she wins.
She'll have been stuck on a few cities, with Stone + Marble. Her early research will be without equal, she'll get a lot of wonders, and a strong headstart on the Culture Race. Mansa might finish stronger than her, but I believe her headstart will be enough for her to win that race almost everytime.
In that scenario, Mansa would be the most likely runner-up (although if Hammy gets big and Mansa stops teching, I guess Hammy could slip into second place).
And Pacal FTD would be very much in play (althoug this would be a scenario where Mansa would most likely be busy with Gilgamesh, so Giggles FTD would be even more likely I guess?).

The victory condition should be 100% culture (except for the odd troll Diplomatic win I suppose).

Additional thoughts
:
  • If I'm correct and it's indeed a culture win, it should be a fast game. With no real "killer" apart from Gilgamesh whom I expect to be a shadow of his usual self... is there a teeny weeny chance for a FTD - None outcome?
  • There might be a case for picking Mansa 1st and Mansa 2nd?

Spoiler tl;dr :

Coin flip situation.
Pacal dies: Elizabeth winner / Mansa runner-up / Gilgamesh or Pacal FTD
Pacal lives: Mansa winner / Pacal runner-up / Gilgamesh or Hammurabi FTD
Victory condition: Culture
 
Appears Pacal is quite the favorite right now among the picks. Maybe influenced a bit by Sullla's intro.
 
Will the coastal capital win streak continue with Elizabeth or Lincoln?
Or Mansa Musa the twice as much luckier than the second luckiest leader of the series as can be seen from the map, also coincidentally Sulla's favorite leader of the AI Survivor will grab yet another victory?
Can Hammurabi or Lincoln jump on someone in a war and run away with the game? Perhaps can they steal someone's culture victory by diplomacy of UN?
Is there a chance for Gilgamesh to take revenge of openning round game 1 outcome for his brothers and win domination?
As anticipated by the crowd, is this game meant for Pacal, just like his openning round game 5 where he wins the AHs in such a similar high PW group?

A lot of things come down to who is not attacked and who jumps on 2v1 and completely doubles their civilization. If by randomly Gilgamesh attacks Mansa and locks him for 30+ turns, Lincoln with catapults can come after him and runs away with the game.
Now ofc there is such thing as strenght of starting positions, most maps have total hopeless starting positions where no one can ever win starting from there. Unless live stream shocks us with %0.001 result...
Our task is to analyse them and vote accordingly. Last time I called Victoria boxed in, and she sure was in the alternative histories but the not in the actual game. Now if Elizabeth called for being boxed in...
I don't know what to say anymore. A toxic diplo victory by Lincoln or Hammurabi would be nice to see, watching contest favorites trolled is always fun. This maps looks unfair and Mansa is on the best position with lots more space than others..


I will pick Lincoln FTD.
I will pick Hammurabi to win. I feel like culture makes the most sense this game but for Hammurabi it should be diplo.
Last but least importantly, and most randomly, I pick Elizabeth for second.
 
Appears Pacal is quite the favorite right now among the picks. Maybe influenced a bit by Sullla's intro.
Damn, this is annoying! :lol:

I had more or less made up my mind to go for a Lizzy pick on the assumption that most of the field would go for Mansa.
Now, I don't know...
Decision, decision... :think:
 
Pacal's cap is whack strong indeed. I don't see another that even comes close to his. Rest of his land is suspect, but he should get off to a fast start. The question is what Pacal we will get. Like Mansa, he can sometimes eschew expansion for wonders and nonsense.
 
Pacal's cap is whack strong indeed. I don't see another that even comes close to his. Rest of his land is suspect, but he should get off to a fast start. The question is what Pacal we will get. Like Mansa, he can sometimes eschew expansion for wonders and nonsense.

At least Pacal might be able to afford some nonsense with that capital! My fear for Mansa is that he may try to race "double gold" Pacal to religions, or beat "marble stone" Elizabeth to wonders when he really needs to grab the western land. Even without the forests, Mansa has a weak commerce capital.

I'm with Fippy and the community here, I think Pacal has at least comparable chances to Mansa of winning this one. I'm leaning to Pacal right now, simply because I would feel foolish for backing against him in view of what happened in game 5. That time I picked Darius, but it turned out that Pacal was by far the strongest in the alternate histories, despite a poor diplo setup and dubious looking coastal start. This looks like it could be an improved game 5 for Pacal, with a superlatively good capital and high peaceweight leaders that make unreliable allies (Mansa and Elizabeth can plot at pleased!). Also, I suspect Hammy's scouts could be eyeing the elephant/corn/pig to his west, which would give Pacal more potential space (at the expense of Mansa) if settled first.
 
I bow to the groupthink this time :lol:
1st: Pacal
2nd: Gilgs
FTD: Link
Victory: Space
Wars: 9

I do think Sullla downplays Pacal's aggressiveness often. Pacal will fight.
 
Hammurabi looks like the spoiler here - he will probably get a religion from either Mansa or Pacal, and that leader will become friendly with Hammy. Mansa has such a commerce-poor, forest-choked start, that he and Hammy will probably be rivals. Hammy has the elephants to pick up Mansa's land - or Pacal could backstab him in the industrial era, picking up enough land to win.

Gilgamesh and Lincoln will have early border tension. I don't like Lincoln's odds of controlling the central iron tile, so he probably is FTD. Giggles could really snowball with a timely Calendar - or stagnate without it.

I have an irrational soft spot for Lizzy. A sheltered start spot with good commerce and strategic resources could be what she needs to get an upper hand on a backwards Giggles, or a small, wonder-building Pacal. Happiness is a real problem, perhaps solved by the Pyramids or a Mono/CoL religion. Maybe she can convert the north? Pacal is her natural enemy.

Pacal will build many wonders. I predict he will settle north towards Lizzy, and build the Colossus. Happiness and commerce - he will be deadly if he expands.
 
Whelp, my assessment last week was garbage. I was way off on how much the barbs would ruin Sury's game, and Sury doing reasonably well was the keystone of my analysis, so the rest of it fell apart really fast after that. (Hmm... need to learn something from that.)


Spoiler This week :

My 10 minute look says:

Mansa is always a big favorite. That capital is a little rough, though the financial oasis is okay at T-1. But decent neighbors, and big back line with river could be enough to overcome slow capital, especially if Giggles goes after Lincoln, and stalls.
Liz - plains cow, fin fish, iron, stone, marble capital? Wonder spam. Pretty good chance at some river cities to the West. Lincoln is no worry, but Pacal might be.
Gilgamesh - a pretty competent killer but too much jungle to the south, and too much plains to the east. no early bronze. no horses or ivory. very safe iron
Pacal - wet corn, 2x gold, plains cow, green horse. starts with mining. idk - that sounds pretty good. near copper. iron looks far in the back tundra. should have a beautiful capital, but will he just make too many enemies and let Mansa build away in the corner?
Lincoln - I don't expect much of him. looks like a mediocre spot next to a good military leader. sounds bad. even if he doesn't get killed, he's unlikely to win.
Hamm - Low food capital. May get squeezed. Could get left alone, but seems unlikely.


 
Seeding Watch:

Mansa Musa
could become the #1 overall seeded leader this week! All he needs is two points and he passes Huayna Capac - and the two will be far enough ahead that nobody else will stand much of a chance of catching up to them.

Pacal and Gilgamesh are also both Pool One leaders already and could move up further with a successful outing, but nothing too exciting.

Hammurabi has longshot odds to move into Pool Two this week (it would take a three-kill win), while Elizabeth and Lincoln are still well out of reach.



This hasn't been a great week for me to focus on AI Survivor, so I've had an especially hard time evaluating this map. That might also be partially due to the fairly strong opinions expressed on why Mansa or Pacal (depending on the poster) is definitely the favorite here, also partly due to the map which in most respects doesn't seem to offer up a ton of major advantages/disadvantages.

Two general trends across the map that hold true for almost all of the leaders (exceptions will be noted further down): it's fairly tight, with not a lot of space for most of the leaders. There won't be many very big cores here, methinks. Secondly, most of the leaders seem poised to have similar levels of early-game happiness. It doesn't seem too likely for that to be a major factor here.

Overall, this game is mostly being billed as a Mansa vs. Pacal showdown, and I have to say that I agree with that. In addition to being two of the best leaders at AI Survivor, they have the two most obvious advantages to their starting positions, and it's hard to imagine somebody else overtaking both of them. The big question is, which of the two will win? I honestly do not know who is more likely to come out on top at this point, if one of them is. Each has his own pros and cons.

Right at the start of the season, when the maps were first revealed, I took note of Mansa Musa's starting position which I thought was likely to go to him. My thought at the time was that this was a very promising position for him to make the Championship, except that he was probably going to start next to a warmonger who had won Game 1. Well, it's Hammurabi instead, which is a great stroke of luck for Mansa indeed! (Put Kublai there instead and keep everything else the same and I think Mansa is pretty screwed here and the game is a lot more straightforward to read.) Mansa is the one leader with significant backlines to settle, which means he should have one of the biggest civs on the map based solely on peaceful settling. Add in the fact that he's on the right side of the peaceweights, and that he's simply Mansa, and it's clear he's a major major threat to run away with this and return to the Championship once more. The potential problems for Mansa are twofold. One is that his land is uninspiring; I don't think it's terrible, but there's no particular synergy and it's not particularly strong. The hope, then, is that quantity + the leader himself wins out over quality in the long run. The other is diplomatic in nature; Mansa is near the map's sole warmonger, which could prove a problem, and if Hammurabi practices a different religion then he could be a major problem as well.

On the other side of the map, Pacal has largely the opposite setup. He's more diplomatically in trouble, in the peaceweight minority and surrounded entirely by high peaceweights; if they're feeling aggressive, he could easily have a dogpile on his hands. He also has much less space than Mansa. However, we saw how he dealt with an iffy start in a poor diplomatic environment in his opener, and the Alternate Histories proved that this was no fluke. And his start here is much better: that double gold + starting Mining + Financial = !!!!! Once he reaches Calendar, he has by far the most available luxuries as well for a nice high happy cap. Pacal is going to get out to a faster start than Mansa; the question will be if he can keep it up. I do think he'll have stiffer competition here than in his opener; Mansa/Liz are simply more threatening than weak Darius/Ramesses/constantly-fighting-the-Celts-Hatty. One more advantage/disadvantage for Pacal: the advantage is that he can easily found an opening religion if he wants to, and that could be a major help, both with Holy City culture and with diplomacy if he spreads it well. Converting Hammurabi and Liz might well be his path to winning the game. On the other hand, a disadvantage that I think tips the scales for me is that his prospects for conquest are quite poor. Pacal is a more peaceful leader who is unlikely to be on the right side of dogpiles and will have a small production base. Prior to unlocking a major tech lead, I don't think he's likely to take significant land, and that could prove the fatal issue against a Mansa who will both start with more land and has better prospects for military expansion (namely Gilgamesh who is likely to be very unpopular).

So I don't really know which leader ought to be favored between the two, but I'm leaning Mansa. He'll have more territory, better expansion prospects, and better diplomacy, and I think that ought to be enough to outweigh Pacal's richer land. Probably.

The forgotten Financial leader here is Elizabeth, who not only lacks the track record of Mansa/Pacal but also lacks the specific advantages that they have on this map. Still, she has a shot. @Thrasybulos brought up the possibility of her moving into the lead off a dogpile of Pacal, and that seems realistic to me, especially if Gilgamesh does give Mansa some trouble. If something does happen to both of the two, Liz is in the best position to take advantage. However, her limited space and peaceful disposition will make it hard for her to take the lead, and I suspect she's most likely to survive without advancing.

Lincoln and Hammurabi are unpopular leaders in important positions; the central positions allow them to dictate the diplomacy of this game and their intervention could be critical in deciding the outcome. In particular, one of the most important variables might well be whether Hammurabi ends up practicing the same religion as Mansa or as Pacal - if he goes for one of the opening religions and gets it, it's probably curtains for Pacal! His access to both of the frontrunners makes him a major leader to watch; from that central position, he won't stay at peace forever. Depending on how wars and dogpiles play out, the central positions could also give these two good odds at growing (especially off of Gilgamesh for Lincoln and Pacal for Hammurabi) and moving into the score lead. I don't like either's odds of winning with three Financial leaders on the board, but one of them sneaking through in second seems quite feasible - and Hammur I'd probably say is the most likely non-Financial leader to win. He has more space and is a better cultural leader than Lincoln, which I think give him the edge in this central spot. I do have Lincoln in fantasy, though, so I'm hoping he can slide through and sneak out a second place finish. I don't think he's as doomed to irrelevance as a lot of people do.

One spot that might be quite important is that floodplains/corn/pigs/ivory region between Mansa and Hammurabi. If Mansa gets it then it might already be game over! But if Hammur gets it, I think he has pretty good odds of moving on to the Championship.

Finally, Gilgamesh I think has pretty much no chance of winning. I know, I know, Brennus won twice in the Game 5 AHs, hence why I say "pretty much" no chance instead of going with an absolute. But Gilgamesh is stuck in a corner, with two Financial leaders on the opposite end of the map and another next to him; how the heck is he supposed to keep up with all of them at once? Also I don't think his position itself is very good here, mostly plains and trees around him to make for not a very fast start. Commerce in particular will be limited early on, very bad news with three Financials on the board. I don't think he'll start strong enough for a snowball to be in the cards; maybe he can be strong and threaten Mansa's game, but Thrasy might be right about him being too weak in any case to pose a serious threat.

Overall, it seems extremely likely that either Pacal or Mansa will win, with Liz as the dark-horse candidate. My sense is that they're unlikely to both be strong, though; one or the other will probably get dogpiled into irrelevance at some point (likely based on whom Hammurabi attacks) and I don't fancy either as a great second-place candidate. Could be wrong, though. I think Lincoln and Hammurabi are the most likely runners-up, ironic as they have by far the least support in that category in the picking contest! But dogpile odds for them seem pretty light in this case and I think one can swell to second-place size. (Then again, all four leaders on the edges can declare at Pleased, so maybe the two central leaders are in for a rude shock...) As for First to Die, I'm not too sure about this one and could see anybody as a reasonable candidate, except for Liz whom I think has the safest position. My inclination is Gilgamesh, though, as he's going to get himself in more conflicts than the others and is unlikely to fare very well in them.



Rather than being based on my analysis, my official pick for this game is something of a meme/reference. Specifically, it references Season 3 Game 5, the game that forever spurred me to stop taking the picking contest seriously. Below I present the "explanation" that went with my entry:

Seven years ago, we had a game featuring many of these same leaders. I picked Lincoln to come in second place. He and Hammurabi worked together to kill Gilgamesh, putting Lincoln in second, and all was well.

Until a runaway Mansa attacked him at the end of the game, for no reason, and ruined my pick.

Now, old wrongs shall be righted and the injustices of the past amended. Once again, Lincoln and Hammurabi shall gang up on Gilgamesh. Once again, Lincoln shall take the bulk of the spoils to move into second place. But this time, Mansa will leave Lincoln alone while waltzing to an easy victory.

And I will finally get my five points.
 
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