Sullla's AI Survivor Season Eight - Playoff Game 3 Thread

Keler

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Welcome for another AI survivor event. This time Sullla's AI Survivor Season 8 is continuing on spooky Friday the 13th (still September) on Sullla's Twitch Channel at noon EST.

This will be the third and last play off match, which features three protective leaders Qin Shi Huang,Sitting Bull and Churchill starting next to each other at south half of the map. At north half we have a somewhat but not extreme warmonger personality Mehmed, wildcard winner who shocked us to make it out alive in his oppening round Pericles and financial Victoria who again surprised us and won her oppening round game from a seemingly boxed in position. Funny thing is Victoria again have a similar coastal capital to begin with. Let's find out if she can repeat her oppening round performance once again as a favorite of this game. Will she let Sitting Bull and Churchill become neighbours?

Yeni Proje (1).jpg



You can watch the preview, read the written preview, and join the fun by making your own prediction. As always, all are welcome to discuss and continue to follow the season in this thread!

And if you want yet another contest, check out the picking game presented by @Fippy !
 
Quick glance:

I feel like Victoria to space is a likely outcome at first impression.

Like:
Victoria - financial in a protective field. some lands to expand into to the south. fin with 2x seafood seems to be doing well.
Sitting Bull - Lots of land, and neighbors that should mostly leave him alone.
Churchill - Decent land, good for a 2nd place? Who is gonna bother him? Least likely to get ruined with a dumb 1:1 war early.

Don't like:
Pericles - looks pinched. got the long low PW leader close.
Qin - Just not a big fan of the leader.
 
Early impressions: Sitting Bull has maybe the best position, and I don't know what to think about that.

Churchill has the other best position and maybe will finally break the curse of starting gold.

Vicky's position is nothing special, but she could do Financial things. Especially with more militaristic but peaceful leaders as her chief rivals, this seems like a favorable setup for her.

Pericles is Also There and could backdoor second.

Mehmed and Qin are in the minority and don't have anything special about their starts. They are screwed unless they pull a Gandhi or something.

I'll re analyze the map and type out my usual wordy thing tonight or tomorrow.
 
I sit with Standing Bull this game. Lots of rivers and a gold mine, he usually expands well and can mostly win his 1v1 wars under equal sizes thanks to protective trait plus high unit building focus. If he solo captures Mehmed or together with Pericles and doubles his land I think he has good chance to win.

Pericles can maybe culturally swallow some of Mehmed's land and can become a runner up. Being next to a target that is probably a first to die called Mehmed might turn into an advantage. If there is anyone who can pull a last weeks' second place Gandhi that should be him even after getting harassed by early game attacks.

Victoria plots at pleased and I don't know where religions will be founded and spread. Can she settles crazy and build the great lighthouse? There are three leaders with coastal start this game. Financial is good but is she under danger if Churchill follows a different religion? Or would she randomly plot a suicidal war for no reason?

Churchill with double gold, will he be pleased lock and do nothing all game, just like Frederick from the last game? Random barbarian city spawns is possible around him and Siting Bull that might cost a top two finish if someone else randomly captures. Who knows. Overall both Churchill and Sitting Bull very similar leaders. Churchill enjoys having a better peace weight which has no use for this game, diplo wise. Sitting Bull enjoys having agriculture as starting tech.

Mehmed is likely to have all gems on this map to help his commerce. I don't know if that will be enough to keep his game going. He needs to be in 1v1 situation to win and his targets doesnt seem weak.
Qin on the other hand has lots of fish to settle on coast because he has no river at all. Sooner or later they should both die. Maybe after half of the world convert free religion.

I picked Sitting Bull win
Pericles second
Mehmed FTD.
and Diplo victory for fun. I don't remember my wars and dates, I think I voted 2 days ago :D
 
PLAYOFF GAME 3 Announcement is up on the Main Page!


ack...I've no clue who to pick this time. This game seems really up in the air. I may use random.org :lol:

I'm leaning toward Churchy, but I like Mehmed too even with a meh start. Mehmed/Qin relationship could be a key here depending on how that goes, as the only two with bad pieceweights. Mehmed does not plot at Pleased though, while Qin does. Peri and Churchy are neutral and don't plot at Pleased. Vicky and Bull are high peaceweights. Vicky does plot at Pleased.
 
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Seeding-wise, there's not too much to note anymore. Pericles or Churchill could move into Pool Two with a win and nothing else would make significant waves.

More broadly speaking, I think our pools are just about set for next season; only realistic way I see them changing at this point would be if Churchill wins this week or Gandhi next week. Barring that or something really unexpected, we're done moving around.

Pool One will be the same as it was this year, except with Gilgamesh instead of Suryavarman.

Pool Two will be more different: as well as the above swap, it's dropping Mao, Hannibal, and Louis, and picking up Cyrus, Mehmed, and Zara (or somebody else if they earn the spot late in this season). Only Gandhi, Alex, Darius, and Charlemagne remain constant.



I think that our odds of having any low peaceweights in the championship are now extremely low. (Which I like; I'm excited to see how an all-high-peaceweight finale shakes out!) Qin and Mehmed are outnumbered, they're stuck on the same side of the map together, leaving the two Englands in particular unthreatened, and neither of their starts looks that great.

Qin Shi Huang's capital is all right, but his surrounding land is fairly low on commerce, and with Sitting Bull's start offset significantly in his direction, he'll be cramped. I don't think he has the heft to break out of this position, especially not through a large Sitting Bull, so he'll have to try to rely on the fishing village economy. And I don't think he'll be able to challenge the U.K. in that regard. Also, if he doesn't net the silver that's midway between himself and SB, he has no early happiness until Monarchy! Mehmed II is also rather cramped, especially with Creative Pericles close by coupled with his own general refusal to tech early culture. (Although the last point may not come into play here, as there is no big favorite to chase the early religions; Mehmed could go for one and pick up Myst that way.) He also has a slow-starting area with a lot of jungle, including over the early gems that would otherwise be his biggest boost (and only early happiness resource). Especially against a bunch of peaceniks with better starts, this will set him too far behind at the beginning a la Brennus/Justinian last game; he'll be utterly hopeless in tech and I think too small to start to snowball. Coupled with his likelihood to get himself into trouble, I imagine he's the favorite for First to Die. I expect that either he or Qin would have to get quite lucky to even backdoor second place, and a win would be a complete shock.

So this game belongs to the peaceniks. Of those four, Pericles I think has the worst odds as he lacks the specific advantages that the others have. I do like his capital if he can scrounge up enough total food; the double early happiness resources alone puts him a step above Qin and Mehmed. However, the rest of his land is uninspiring; not a lot of it and not very rich. I don't think he'll be able to keep up will enough to contend for the win unless he snowballs through the low peaceweights or something. He is best-position to gain territory from Mehmed, so depending on how wars shake out, second place and a Championship ticket could easily be in the cards for him. But he's the last peacenik that I'd bet on in this game.

Victoria's position is also uninspiring. She looks quite cramped and most of the surrounding territory doesn't look particularly great - low on food in particular, and no happiness resources until Monarchy. But she is Financial and does have one nice river, and that might be enough. If she wins, it will be because she's doing Financial things, plain and simple. She certainly should have the opportunity to do so in peace, as none of her neighbors declare at Pleased - only her. But if that just means that they take their aggression out in the west, instead, she could find herself left out. In any case, my fantasy hopes now rest entirely with her - I think I need her to win the season in order to have a real shot at winning the contest. At the moment, I'm not feeling super optimistic about that.

Then there's the two good starts. Churchill now gets a chance to overcome the curse of the starting gold, and especially the starting double gold; can he succeed where Fred and Pacal failed? He does have a very safe position and much more room to expand than most of the field. Sitting Bull's more western position is certainly to his benefit here, and he actually has some guaranteed space to settle in every direction, which is more than most of this field can say. Most the land isn't too impressive, but it's enough. There's one good river and the double gold to get him started, and gold + Charismatic will have him ahead of most of the crew in early happiness. I think Churchill is by default one of the top two in this field, and somebody else needs to accelerate ahead in order to knock him out of that position; he should have a good run in the alternate histories. What about a win, though? It seems feasible here for once. Most of the leaders here aren't very winnerly and the couple who have a more distinct win condition also don't have great starts. Churchill's greatest weakness ordinarily is that he's a very slow starter, but if the double gold can speed him through the early techs? There might not be much to get in his way. I wish I'd gone with my original intentions and gotten him in fantasy; I think he's quite likely to join Kublai Khan in the "three straight Championships" club.

Then there's my favorite position on the map... which went to, of all leaders, Sitting Bull! He has only one gold to Churchill's two and doesn't start with mining, but on the other hand, look at all those floodplains at the capital! There's also at least a little bit of river in every direction, plenty of room for him to expand, and his central position will be a boon on this map, not very susceptible to backstabs and giving especially his militaristic AI personality a good chance to take much of the spoils from the western leaders' demise. Sitting Bull should easily have one of the biggest nations on the map, and the scenario as a whole is somewhat reminiscent of his victory in Game 3 of this season. Could he win again? The downside to his situation, is, well, that he's Sitting Bull. Only an unlikely Cultural attempt got him the win in Game 3 and he might have trouble crossing the finish line here. We'll see.

After typing through all of that, my feeling is that we're most likely to see a Sitting Bull-Churchill ticket (in some order) for the Championship. I'm sure people will be really excited about that! :lol: The most likely disruptions are if Vicky or Pericles can sneak out a cultural victory, Vicky can jump ahead in economy, or one of SB or Churchill struggles more than expected and Pericles is able to take his place.

I think I'm going to predict Sitting Bull for the spaceship win, Churchill for second place, and Mehmed first to die.
 
The short version: this game reminds me a lot of Stalin's opening round game. That is, a weak leader in the strongest, central starting position. That should make Sitting Bull the favourite to win, albeit a weak favourite, with lots of room for other outcomes. In other words... a fairly unpredictable game.

Qin
Sue me, I think he's the best leader in this field. He's never flashy, rarely if ever gets impressive wins, but somehow he's usually there at the end. For instance, he made it to the Championship game in both my Jumbled Rumble seasons, and I don't think that was an accident.
But here... His diplomatic situation is bad, his starting area is bad. No commerce, no happiness, and even plan B (GLH + Colossus), usually an option for the coastal start won't be an option here as several AIs have a coastal start on this map. Being Industrious, he might get the GLH, but I'm fairly certain he won't get both.
An early conflict with SB (a distinct possibility) would probably spell doom for Qin (FTD) and set up an easy path for a SB victory. While maybe not the mosty likely scenario, I bet this is one which will be repeated a few times in the AH if not the live game.
I don't think he has any shot at winning here. He might slip into a second place finish if the mid-game diplo aligns (Bureaucracy as a favourite civics should help prevent him from crazy DoWs), but most likely he'll die at some point.

Mehmed
He's a competent warmonger, although not in the Gilgamesh league.
He could win this, and I wouldn't be surprised if it happened a coupla times in the AH. But his start, while decent for a Cultural AI, is rather poor for a warmonger and he's bound to get into more trouble than he can handle.
Early conflict with Pericles is near certain, and that means of them is the favourite for first to die, as a 2v1 situation is extremely likely.
Peaceweight would suggest that Mehmed should have the honour, but I dunno.
Churchill, the only one not bordering him, might be the deciding factor, as strange as it sounds: I can very well see Mehmed and Pericles having at it, then SB attacking Mehmed while Viccy declares on Pericles... and then whether Churchill attacks SB or Viccy would decide who pulls out and thus which of Mehmed or Pericles ends up in a fatal double front.

Pericles
As mentioned, I think he's the favourite for FTD, along with Mehmed. His main threat is Viccy: if she attacks him, he's probably a goner. If not, well, he has a shot at a Cultural victory.
I don't think he's a favourite for the win, though: he has a decent chance (20% ?), but I think others have a better chance.
I don't think he has a shot at second place, though: he'll either die, or win, or stay small.

Churchill
He has one the best starts, and should be strong early game.
He's the only AI who seems safe from being FTD.
He should win some... but rarely. I see him rather in the King Maker role. Barring some weird RNG, he should get into conflict with either Viccy or SB. And whether he wins that conflict or not, the real winner should be the one he didn't attack.
He's currently the favourite for second place in the picking contest, and that seems fair. I'm not sure he's the most likely to end up as the runner-up, but that should happen often enough.

Victoria
Her start is the weakest, but diplomacy is very favourable to her here.
She could be FTD if she gets run over by Churchill early, but I don't think that's the most likely outcome.
Her main (and only ?) path to victory is probably through a conquest of Pericles to get more land. The good news for her is that it should be a fairly common scenario.
So if she can avoid early conflict with Churchill and conquer Greece, she'll be the favourite. The odds of that happening? 20-30%?

Sitting Bull
The weakest AI. With the strongest starting position (well, with Churchill's anyway). In the center of the map.
That means he'll get strong early game, and with him bordering everyone, every other AI will be a smart target and any land conquered will extend his territory in a contiguous way.
The main favourable scenarios are probably a solo-conquest of Qin or a shared conquest of Mehmed.
But being in the middle of the map also means he could end up at the receiving end of an early dogpile, and be FTD. If he's not FTD, he should get very strong and either translate that into a win, or a second place behind a faster Pericles Culture or Viccy launch.
His main rival should be Churchill: I can't see both of them doing well in the same game very often. Which, if true, means that the runner-up slot is very much in the air: SB and Churchill are the favourites... when SB doesn't win.

Winner: Sitting Bull > Victoria > Pericles
Runner-up: Churchill / Sitting Bull
FTD: Mehmed / Pericles > Sitting Bull
Victory Condition: Domination / Space > Culture
End turn, nb of wars: ??
 
I'm thinking a double England ticket with Peri getting divided between Vicky and Meh-Med.
 
I decided to go with
1st - Vicky
2nd - Sitting
FTD - Mehmed
Space, Turn 350, 7 Wars

Vicky and Pericles take out Mehmed while Sitting and Mao get locked into a long war. Vicky reaches space first due to being financial, Sitting is second by virtue of having conquered Mao.

As for my General read on the map, a few thougths:
- If nothing happens Vicky limps to space.
- I think that Sitting and Pericles will go for an early religion, maybe Mehmed too. Religions and the PW rolls could also split the high-PW block. This could result in 3 blocks: Peri/Vicky, Mehmed/Mao and Sitting/Churchill, opening up the game for anyone.
- Also Mehmed and Vicky could easily choke Pericles but RNG will have to decide.
- I do like Mehmed's position if he does not get overrun in an early war. Even being alone I think he does have his chances against Vicky and Pericles, due to them being in the same direction.
 
The more I look at the map and the leaders the more indecisive I get about what to pick here. :lol: Each time I think I like leader X there is something about their position that I don't like.

Therefore I proceeded to implement a highly scientific method for determining the winner I will predict here. I present the results of my intense research and analysis below:
Spoiler King Kong ain't got nothing on me :
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1st- ^^^
2nd - Peri
FTD - Qin
Victory - Domination
Wars - 8
 
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Right now, Vick has 41% of the votes as favorite, which is not so dominant, and then the votes are spread fairly evenly. Only Qin seems very unpopular. Honestly, a bit surprised Vicky is getting that many votes. I guess cause of FIN.

2nd place has every leader getting some significant votes. Church not surprisingly getting the most as he is Mr. Runner UP.

FTD has 4 leaders almost even right now in votes. I don't think I've ever seen that before.

Only category with dominant voting is the VC which is Space.
 
I liked Victoria because of the Financial fish start, and a lot of green river, and neighbors that are unlikely to attack her.

But Sitting Bull seems like he's got a good shot. I haven't made my final pick yet.
 
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