[BTS] Sullla's AI Survivor Season Eight - Wildcard Game 1 Thread

Eauxps I. Fourgott

AI Survivor Nerd
Joined
May 16, 2024
Messages
381
After a one-week break (no stream on Friday, August 9th!), Sullla's AI Survivor Season 8 will continue on August 16th, on Sullla's Twitch Channel at noon EDT.

After an unprecedented thirteen leaders survived the opening round without advancing, Sullla decided do TWO Wildcard games for the first time ever! Unlike the ordinary games, the Wildcard always has Raging Barbarians enabled, and because there are two games and just two playoff spots left to fill, ONLY the winner of each game will advance. Wildcard Game 1 brings together almost all of the surviving higher peaceweights; Catherine of Russia will be wildly out of place in this field. Will she, Joao, or Pericles be lucky enough to advance after terrible performances that they were lucky to survive? Will the more average performances from Zara Yacob or Asoka be rewarded instead? Or will Hatshepsut finally score the first points of her AI Survivor career?

Capture.PNG


You can watch the preview, read the written preview, and join the fun by making your own prediction. (And view the current picks!) As always, all are welcome to discuss and continue to follow this wacky season in this thread!

And if you want yet another contest, check out the picking game presented by @Fippy !
 
Last edited by a moderator:
...Aaaaand now that I went to the trouble of making and posting the post, I realize that tonight I'm too tired to type out a full analysis. Maybe tomorrow, then!
 
I voted for Hatshepsut simply because I want her to earn points. It is probably not the best option to vote for earning points. I am just wishing for her. She is actually a good AI I can't believe no one really thinks so in Sulla's chats :(
At least I know what I see from my autoplays.
I'm not good at predicting where raging barbarians will come. Is Asoka in danger? Pericles safe? Hatshepsut and Joao is in danger too?

I have Pericles for runner up. Before the announcement of two wildcards, withouth map reveal I looked at those leaders and said to myself I vote for Hatshepsut or Pericles culture victory for a huge 11+ leader game. But obviously space is more likely if others are going to win this.

Hatshepsut has no metals and war chariots to plot war before turn 80? I have no confidence but I still picked her to win.
I don't see copperdecs in my autoplays so often anyway... I also can't believe this is happening in Sulla's live stream.
Montezuma and Louis plotting war the second they're out of war come on something is wrong with that.

Zara has so much rivers going for him. It really depends on who conquers and doubles their land to go for space. This game looks very open for almost everyone to have at least one or two victories in the Alternative histories. I don't see clear favorite. Every outcome makes sense to me for the first time this season.
 
I have very little experience with raging barbs. That being said I think that Asoka, Zara and Hatty are going to be the main targets, with only Pericles being relatively safe. Any AI that does not build better units than Warriors is going to suffer.

As for the individaul leaders positions, starting with Pericles. He has a relatively sheltered start with nearby copper. Also he has a coastal capital with seafood and I think he will go west for his second city, so he will have some early commerce, avoiding a disaster as in his opening round game. Nonetheless he will be starting slowly due to going for an early reigion. Having Marble is a good thing for any culture game. Being close to Cathy does not improve his position.

Cathy does have a good starting position. To make use of it she will need Agriculture and Fishing. There are some great city spots around her, especially the floodplains east and the southern peninsula. The problem is, that these are mostly hogh food locations and she will struggle with happiness. This will allow for about 4 good early game cities. Not having Copper could hurt her due to barbs, but I think it will help due to delaying plotting after Iron working. Since I think she will go east she is likely to run into early confilct with Pericles. If she does not go for an early war she is going to run out of useful terrain fast, due to the jungle north of her being relatively resource-poor. She will be the one to profit if Asoka gets stomped by Barbarians. If not her long-term position looks weak especially with being the only low-peaceweight. She is my favourite for the great Wall.

In a regular game I would say that Asoka has the best starting position. He has a Mining start with Gems, lots of room and a plains-cow. Admittedly the land south and west is relatively poor, but for a Deity AI there is potential for a number of decent and even some good cities. Here all this room is possibly a disadvantage due to barbarians and Asoka not being very militaristic. Copper is close-by, although I think that will not be an early city. If he does survive Barbarians he will also have tensions with Cathy. This could quickly escalate mistakes in dealing with Barbs into being overrun. Also if he and Pericles found the early reigions Cathy becomes more likely to attack the one whose Religion she does not follow. I think she is more likely to adopt Pericles' Religion.

Joao also has a relatively sheltered start. Due to the large free area to his south I believe he will still get his share of Barbarian troubles. His second city will probably grab the Gold, and for his sake I hope it will be in the first ring. His start has two main problems: firstly he will somewhat struggle for food, due to not starting with Agriculture. That being said I think he will be quick to research it. Secondly he starts in the middle of a forest. If he does not settle the Gold my crystal ball shows me some disaster. If he does and Asoka struggles to settle the Area between them he could do well, but the good land is closer to Asoka than to him.

Hatshepsut is going to struggle. Her capital is low on food, with only a deer and 4 floodplains. Besides that there are lots of forrests. The best thing about this capital is the marble. Also her land is not that good. The rivers east are more likely to go to Zara and besides that there is little commerce. Also I think that both Joao and Zara will expand towards her to some extent, possibly limiting her to 5 non-tundra cities. On the upside she does have horses and by extention war chariots to deal with Barbarians. Creative will also help fogbust and Elephants being on the table will help. I think her most likely way to victory is to conquer Zara with War chariots before he reaches Iron working... I do not like her chances for a Culture win on this map.

Zara
starts in the land of rivers, with a rich jungle to his south as a bonus. He does have the potential for many good cities. His big problem is not having access to copper, and only very unlikely horses, limiting him to archers until Iron working. Also the downside to having a lot of room to expand into is the Barbarians, even with Creative helping. Due to all the hills I believe he has enough production to defend himself with archers. For that he will need Archery. Him going for a Religionhe is unlikely to get would hurt is game badly. If he does survive Barbarians he will also have good position, comparable to Asoka. If he struggles, then Hatty will take advantage. Compared to Asoka his long-term position has the advantage of being a little further from Cathy, and the disadvantage of one position being played by Zara, the other by Asoka. Asoka will probably be faster with the Culture win.
 
I like Cathy here a lot, mainly as she is the most aggressive. Her issue may be diplo though and possibly facing multiple fronts by angering too many peaceniks. However, if she can get off to a fast start I think she can roll here.
 
While doing the mandatory plains cow check, I noticed a very interesting feature on this map. While I doubt it had much predictive power I do think it’s one of the more unique maps we’ve had so far:
image.png

There are only 4 sources of horses on this map. From the looks of it, joao and one of Zara or pericles are locked out of horses entirely. While joao does have ivory at least, at least 2 (3 if Cathy grabs the contested one) civs are not going to have the entire cavalry line available to them with no opportunities for trade. Might be a very interesting combat dynamic to play a feature for sure.
 
I believe the Horse situation was very similar in last year's playoff featuring Ramesses ?
 
Other than i think Asoka looks like a dead Indian walking.
Curious to know why? Barbs and no Stone so no GW for him?
If a leader seems doomed in this field, my money would be on Cathy, for obvious peaceweight reasons.
 
Raging Barbs are a ton of fun. Especially when you play on lower difficulty levels and AI can get outright wiped out by the hordes :crazyeye:. Obviously unlikely in AI Survivor because Deity difficulty, but still, it's a doozy.
 
First off, I want to note that my post-game analyses here might be shorter for the rest of the season. I'll be doing the official writeups for all remaining games (probably), so I'll probably have less energy to write a bunch here and a lot of what I write would be redundant. I'll try to keep my commentary in here mostly unique...

Anyway, seeding watch for this game! All six leaders are currently unseeded (appropriate for a Wildcard match). Two have the chance to change that here: Catherine currently has 24 points, and needs only a single point to move back into Pool Two (at least briefly). If she gets two kills or comes in second or better, she has fairly strong chances of remaining securing the seeded spot for next season even if she doesn't advance. Zara Yacob has 21 points; realistically, he's probably only going to become a seeded leader again with a win. But if he does win, he's back in Pool Two and has the chance to score more in the playoffs! Either of these advancing would presumably knock Alexander out of Pool Two, although he'll have the opportunity to reclaim that spot in the next game. As for the remaining leaders in this game, all will remain unseeded for now no matter how well they do.

I think both unique factors of this game are quite important in the analysis this week. ONLY first helps, not a strong second place, so a leader being able to map a path to victory is even more important, and the Raging barbs definitely ARE an important factor. Specifically, for the most part, open land around a leader's start position is a major disadvantage in this setup, as it will prolong the period in which they are kept in the stone age by the hordes; too little open land can still be a problem (see Julius Caesar last season), but for the most part a more compact starting area is better here. I think that Joao, Catherine, and Pericles have the advantage in this respect, with Asoka in particular trouble. Another thing to note about the raging barbs, which I learned last season, is that they diminish the importance of a fast start, especially as far as tile improvement techs go. The barbs are probably going to be ripping up almost all of the early tile improvements anyway, so if Pericles has another slow religion-first start, for example, he actually won't be missing out on much! They're a bit of an equalizer in that regard.

As far as paths to victory go, my intuition is that we're highly likely to see either a Cultural or Domination win; I'd be surprised if a spaceship came into play and beat both of those. This is a pretty cultural group, and as Game 5 showed, that does NOT mean that all of the cultural stuff will be spread out too much for somebody to win that way, so I expect that the most common result is somebody flipping on the slider and winning that way without too much trouble. If that doesn't happen, I think it will likely be because Cathy successfully goes on the warpath and wins a Domination victory. Again, I think that both of these victory types would come in quickly enough to rule out the spaceship in most scenarios.

As a result, I have this field split into two groups of leaders. I consider Joao, Zara, and Asoka to have little chance of advancing, and instead think that Hatty, Cathy, and Pericles are the major contenders for the win and playoff berth.



Zara Yacob is the leader whom I think is least likely to win. His position is fairly exposed to the barbs, with a lot of tundra to the north in particular - tundra which will both make his early game more difficult and offer little in return later on - and I don't think he's particularly good at pursuing either a cultural or military victory. Maybe I'll be wrong and he'll execute a strong snowball (certainly if any of the higher peaceweights did, it would be him), but I think it's far more likely that he starts slow and never finds a way to sneak back in front. The quality of his surrounding land is also uninspiring.

Asoka's chances are also grim, as he has the most exposed position. I expect this translates to him getting hit harder by barbs than anybody else, leaving him too far behind to contend. That grassland gems is nice, but it probably won't be connected for very many of the game's first 50 turns! And while there is some nice green land he should be able to get, I think it will be too little, too late. Furthermore, I don't think he has a great setup for either victory condition; he's certainly not a conqueror, and having Organized instead of a cultural trait makes him much less likely to pursue culture, especially with other cultural AIs on the board. As a result, I expect him to chase space, and I don't think that will be a winning strategy here.

Joao II has perhaps the nicest spot on the map of any of these leaders - admittedly, it is quite dry, but it is sheltered from the barbs and has multiple early happiness resources to boot. However, his personality is wrong for this group. He's not going to be strong at culture and he's not going to snowball over so many friendly faces, so I think he gets left in the dust. He's also the only leader in this field who is not Creative and does not start with Mysticism; he's very likely to be strapped for culture early on, and everybody else is guaranteed not to. That alone might be enough of a disadvantage to rule him out as a winner, even before taking other factors into account.

Then there are our three contenders. It's easy to write off Catherine here at first glance, as the only low peaceweight leader and in a central position to boot - dogpile magnet! Except... who's going to actually dogpile her? This group of leaders is peaceful enough that I think it would not be that difficult for her to pull a Hammurabi and kill all of her opponents piecemeal. She starts the game with a secure southern border, which should result in her having less barb trouble and thus a stronger opening, while still having a decent amount of space to expand into. She's then going to try to conquer her neighbors, and if - IF - she chooses her battles wisely and doesn't get backstabbed, I think she could be quite successful. Especially if they start to squabble, or she hits one who's still recovering from the early barb activity, that would be a great way to start a snowball going. If Cathy does win this game, it's going to be by Domination, and if she doesn't, she's probably going to be dead or irrelevant by the end. There are a lot of ways that things could go wrong for her - after all, she is the peaceweight outcast in a central position - but this is one map where I think she can actually make this situation work.

Hatshepsut is currently the narrow community favorite; I suspect this is partially due to just people rooting for her, as well as partially due to belief in her guaranteed War Chariots helping out against the raging barbs. At any rate we certainly will see how useful those really are! I think Hatty has the potential to win, but is certainly not an overwhelming favorite. Her position is average in terms of likely barb activity, not as bad as Zara or Asoka's spots but not as sheltered as Joao or Pericles'. Her surrounding land I'd also call average, a bit food-poor in base terrain it seems but with a good resource situation. And when it comes to winning the game, I think she's easily going to be one of the best candidates for a Cultural victory. She's probably going to pursue that most of the time, and I suspect this is a map where it has a good chance of working. She might well put the game on a countdown, unless Cathy kills her, Cathy goes on a romp in general, or...

Pericles beats her to it! I like Pericles' position for this particular game. He's perhaps best-equipped to handle the raging barbs on this map, with a seafood resource at his capital (immediately improvable and the barbs can't pillage it the same way they can land-based resources), a very close source of copper, and an overall quite sheltered position. He shouldn't have too much trouble with them, and I do think he will also still be able to get enough land to stay competitive. A bit squeezed, but on the other hand, if Cathy does fall to a dogpile, Pericles is in excellent position to capitalize and move into a winning position from there. Pericles also has his cultural focus, and while Hatty may give him some stiff competition, if she spends too much of the early game being hampered by barbs, he'll have the inside track on the later prizes and can potentially pull ahead that way. Pericles was my initial pick for game winner, and I do think he has among the best odds for this particular game.
 
I don't know... I could be wrong, but think you guys might be putting too much emphasis on that Raging Barbarians settings.
It adds more chaos, creates more random outcomes.
But does it fundamentally change the dynamics of a game ? "With so much land to expand into, has to be the favourite" turning into "With so much empty land nearby, he's sooo dead" ?

I guess it would be interesting to run a separate set of AH for the Wildcard games, with Raging Barbarians OFF.
And see if it changes the results.

My guess is no. But again, could be wrong. :)
 
About Raging Barbs Thrasy..
last year (?) Ragnar lost his capital, so yup they change dynamics a lot (at least for those AIs in high danger).
Asoka will not be working his gems for very long, prolly.
 
That was season 4 iirc, and an event not repeated in any of the AH. So yes, more chaos, more unpredictability, but no impact on the average outcome.

Thinking of it, a better counterpoint would probably come from last year's WC AH indeed :
"Hilariously, all five of Napoleons wins hinged on the exact same thing happening: Vienne (Boudica's second city) being captured or razed by the barbarians in the first 50 turns."
Implying that Nappy would have had no shot at all with Raging Barbs OFF, while he could win 25% of the games with it ON.

So I think it'd really be interesting to replay some standard games while turning RB on, and to replay some wildcards turning it off.
But I'm kinda fully booked atm. ;)
 
I don't know... I could be wrong, but think you guys might be putting too much emphasis on that Raging Barbarians settings.
It adds more chaos, creates more random outcomes.
But does it fundamentally change the dynamics of a game ? "With so much land to expand into, has to be the favourite" turning into "With so much empty land nearby, he's sooo dead" ?

I guess it would be interesting to run a separate set of AH for the Wildcard games, with Raging Barbarians OFF.
And see if it changes the results.

My guess is no. But again, could be wrong. :)

I'm definitely not running anything like this right now, but I think that if somebody ever does, it will show that the dynamics shift based on Raging Barbs. I don't have any of the older AHs in front of me right now, but as I recall they tend to corroborate the idea that those with the most space around them tend to not perform very well for this reason; they also indicate that while the raging barbs do add some chaos to the game, they actually don't seem to make the final outcomes (especially winners) particularly more random.
 
As I said, I can definitely have the wrong impression since it's based on a very limited sample set: the Season 4 and Season 5 wildcard game maps on which I've been running games with Raging Barbs off, and that had zero apparent impact on the map balance. Starting positions shown to be weak in the AH were weak in my games, and strong starts were strong.
I suppose the quickest approach would be to take a few games with a 80%+ winner and run them with Raging Barbs on.
My expectation is that it would lower that win %, but wouldn't change the favourite. But maybe it would.
 
Raging barbs don't really affect the game that much. The AI leaders have so many units wandering around the map that they naturally get fogbusted out pretty quickly. Also because the AI settles cities so quickly the barb cities start appearing earlier as well which fogbusts the map even more and reduces the number of random barbs spawning. At worst the barbs slow city settling and worker turns a bit, occassionally the AIs lose cities but they can still recover from that.

If Sulla gave the barbs bronze working to start with, I think that would make a bigger difference. Barb spears are more dangerous than archers in terms of capturing AI cities but they don't start appearing in big numbers until the AIs have just about enough defences built up to deal with them.

I did one test game where Asoka got absolutely screwed over by the barbs. He lost a city to them, was stuck on 2 cities for ages and the barbs then spawned 4 cities in his corner of the map. But somehow despite that awful start Asoka was still able to win the game by space.
 
Top Bottom