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Summarized Suggestions for Post v.6-12

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by BiteInTheMark, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    I've needed some days to collect and think about all the discussions and suggestions happening while Gazebo is unavailable. A lot of suggestions from users is used, but also a big part of my own opinion how to improve the mod.

    Spoiler Post v. 6-12 :

    Happiness:
    • Seeking a solution between previous and new version, 1 unhappiness is now gerenerated for every 0.5 difference from median (instead 0.25 in current or 1 in version before)
    • Maximum tech modifier has to be adjusted to hit around half the value like it was in 6-2 Version, where tech and population modifier was working. Probably up to 150% (2% per tech)
    • +1 happiness to all difficulty level
    Smaller India Change:
    • Starts with a pantheon
    • Prophets require 30% less faith, missionaries require 30% more faith
    • for every follower of your primary religion, gain +1%:c5food: and 2% religious pressure
    • for every 2 follower of your primary religion, reduce 1% of needs and the cost of border expansion
    Rework of Venice UA
    • gained cities except capital are always puppets, can purchase in puppets and penalty reduced by 10%
    • unhappiness in all cities halfed and military supply cap in capital doubled
    • gain :trade: in classical era, and more in each following era
    • trade routes are 33% more effective and yougain a trade unit, whenever you unlock a new trade route (coast/landlocked dependent)
    Germany UA:
    • Add: Gain a diplomatic unit for each national wonder you construct the first time
    Poland:
    • UA: now gain a free Socia Policy after unlocking 4 Social Policies instead on specific eras
    • The UB spawns now a 2 horse deposit near city instead of only giving +1 horse
    Tradition:
    • Starter: +5% Growth removed
    • Scaler: gain +2% food and growth with each unlocked policy
    Progress:
    • Fraternity: Rise :c5food: per city from 3 to 4
    • Expertise: Earn now 12:c5culture: for constructing a building instead of 10:c5food:/:c5culture:, scaling with era
    Authority
    • Tribute: 15:c5gold:/:c5food: for border expansion changed to 15:c5gold:/5:c5food:
    Fealty:
    • Monasteries are now constructable by few hammers or purchasable with faith and Monasteries yields now 3:c5faith:/2:c5science:/2:c5gold:/1:c5culture: instead of 3:c5food:/3:c5science:/2:c5faith:
    • Scaler is now 2:c5food:/1:c5faith: instead of 1:c5food:/3:c5strength:
    • Nobility: +2:c5food: from castles changed to +2:c5greatperson: Great Merchant Points (+2:c5gold:)
    • Organized Religion: Now +30% religious pressure, +10% resistance against other religious pressure and +3:c5strength: for each defensive building
    Statecraft:
    • Starter: Gain now +1 of all yields in your capital by 12:c5citizen: instead of 15:c5citizen:
    Artistry:
    • Refinement: 1 free specialist in each city and Guilds give +1:c5happy:. +1 global :c5happy: for each 3 world wonder you control
    Order tenet Nationalization:
    • Foreign Franchises are removed, you can no longer construct Franchises in foreign Cites, and foreign Corporations Franchise bonus in your cities is doubled
    • Corporation trade route bonus to your cities with an office is doubled (or gain +8 gold, if trade route effect only hit ETR)
    • Gain 1 Franchise every 3 turns, up to your normal Franchise limit

    Diplomatic units
    • Base influence of diplomatic units stay over the whole game constant (around 40)
    • Base cost of diplomatic units is lowered, cost scaling with era stays as it is
    • The tier of the unit influences now mainly speed of the unit
    Cost of Trade units reduced by 25%
    Yields from mercantile CS :)c5gold:) increased by 50%
    Decay of CS influence normalized at 1, no more influence if CS is hostile or friendly

    Trade routes:
    • Instant yields from ITR removed from buildings
    • Culture removed from external trade routes, gold and science slightly buffed
    Caravansery
    • Increase flat +1:c5gold: to +2:c5gold:
    • +2:c5food:/:c5production: for internal trade routes
    Custom House
    • +2:c5food:/:c5production: for internal trade routes
    • +2:c5gold:
    • +1:c5gold: for Merchants
    Bank
    • +2:c5gold: for Caravansery and Custom House
    • +1:c5gold: for Merchants
    Seaport and Train Station
    • +4 :c5food:/:c5production: for internal trade routes
    Agribusiness Rework
    • Horse upkeep increased to 3, upkeep cost down to 2:c5gold:
    • +2:c5food: for all farms, camps, plantations and pastures
    • 10% of :c5food: converted to :c5gold:
    • +3:c5food:/:c5production: for internal trade routes
    Library and Workshop
    • Move the unhappiness free specialist slot from Workshop to library (this may be obsolet, if happiness in early game is better balanced or unhappiness didn't deny the usage of specialists)
    Grocer:
    • +1 :c5happy:
    Units:
    • Gatlin Gun and upwards: Slight nerf to CS and RCS
    • Rifleman get a CS buff and/or a free 10% cover promotion (Riflemen gain +25% against mounted and/or increase of CS)
    Corporations:
    • Franchise limit increased per office now 1:3 instead of 1:2


    Critic is welcome, if it's done constructive.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  2. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Chieftain

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    I'd probably be on board with most of this. I'm not so sure Germany needs a buff but if others feel strongly then it's fine.

    China could probably use a nerf to her UA (I think there was some consensus on that) and Ethiopia probably deserves a slight faith nerf early (not so bad that he doesn't consistently found but just enough to slow enhancing/reforming).
     
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  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Progress: I'm open to trying this, I do strongly feel that the food for buildings needs to go. I'm concerned this overcompensates. You are dramatically increasing the amount of gold available while only slightly reducing the food, and gold is probably a better yield for progress. You can really snowball with all that extra gold, especially if you grab Forbidden Palace.

    If I was going to buff statecraft, that wouldn't be what I change. I dislike having +3 science on constabularies

    I forget if mercantile gives happiness or food, but if you are suggesting the food CS: they currently start at 3.5 in capital and 0.5 in other cities, but it rounds down. So reworking them could be a good move, but not just a 50% drop. I think culture and faith CS are overall stronger so I don't like an outright nerf here.

    Germany is consistently a top performing AI. I disagree on Poland's UA, but the Ducal Stable suggestion is good. You need to explain that India UA suggestion, I get that the civ has troubles but I can't follow that suggestion (which is why I'm asking for explanation, I'm sure there is a logic I just don't see it). Really I think these discussions should go to the thread for the relevant civ.
     
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  4. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un Chieftain Supporter

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    I'm not going to get into the civs, although China does need a nerf as mentioned, but everything else here looks legit. CrazyG is probably right about the excessive gold for progress.

    Overall I'm in favour.
     
  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    IMO the free specialist should be moved from workshop to grocer, instead of grocer getting an extra 1:c5happy:

    Isn’t library too early for that boost? I guess it depends, do people think that 2 :c5unhappy:urbanization-free specialists should be unlocked 1 tech BEFORE (library/garden) writer/artist guilds or 1 tech AFTER (Garden/Grocer)?

    Re: the rifleman, I will reiterate my idea here: an anti-armour/mounted promotion doesn’t match the real-world role of infantry in 20th century, and that they could be given anti-city or bonuses for/against fortified units.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
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  6. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    The amount of yields by the UA isnt overwhelming, and especially in early game sometimes hard to maintain. Often the early game feels like playing a civ without any abilities. The nerf of the Hanse was also a hard one, down from 5% to 3%. I think they need some love after all the nerfs.
    My experience with playing China and Ethiopia are very limited, and I think they are most time strong in AI hands cause the AI cant do that much wrong with their abilities. But Iam fine, if they would get small nerfs.
    Atleast for the food ive done some calculations and it should be very similar. But I think your right and the gold could be tuned down to 6.
    Mercantile gives gold. They are nearly allmost the last CS I try to ally, cause all other yields are much more worth. I have the feeling, the gained gold is worth much less than the price you have to pay to send them a diplomatic unit, and having no happiness issues makes them worthless even more. (I dont want to nerf them, they should be buffed)
    Poland should have 1 more policy over the whole game, maybe 2. I wanted to buff this part only slightly.
    A bonus to growth is a/can be weak advantage, cause stopping growth means, you throw away your advantage. And in the current state, you will have to stop growth, cause of happiness problems, India has nothing to compensate the unhappiness it gains by strong growth.
    On a clustered map, you will have to waste that expensive prophets to convert your cities, it hurts always my heart if I have to waste them only for conversion. Same is true for the extra pressure, if you are on a clustered map, that extre pressure is useless.

    In the suggested change, India gets a bonus to food. Even if you stop growth, the extra food from the UA allows you to use more citizens to do other things than farming food, effectivly helping in fighting needs and going for infrastructure. The need reduction also shold help with that. I often have strong problems to get enough tiles for my cities, cause of that, I wanted to boost their border growth a bit. The bonus for 8 population is generic, maybe I go back to the found pantheon on first turn thing.
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I really think the problem this patch is the relationship between growth, happiness, and specialists, that's what should be fixed, and we need a discussion about that and that alone, not the balance of Statecraft or Poland. I don't think India or Fealty should be changed massively, because (hopefully) the next patch will address it. Really there's nothing wrong with Fealty or Statecraft, there's something wrong with the happiness system and Artistry was given a tool to ignore it.

    Sorry, I read this as decrease, not increase. This suggestion is fine.
    If it's very similar in amount, then you aren't removing food, which is the point. Progress can take a hit, its especially a late game hit, it's a great policy tree.

    Food costs don't increase nearly as much as culture or science costs do, so food really shouldn't scale with era, or if it does it should be a rare and limited source. You can see this with the current progress, that 10 per city is somewhat small in ancient era but super powerful by medieval/renaissance (my last game I averaged 12 food per city per turn at turn 200, that's only progress). Progress shouldn't give a hanging gardens in every city, this is what needs to be reduced. To balance, authority and tradition can lose food too, but in my experience progress is the problem.
     
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  8. bitula

    bitula Chieftain

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    I don’t like the idea of nerfing food yield productions and compensating it with extra gold. It’s like the game holding your hands to prevent overgrowth. In case unhappiness is still uncontrollable due to fast growth there should be other ways to make it controllable without these nerfs. Agricultural investment should not be a dominant strategy, it should be just viable IMO. One should understand the risk lying in overgrowth but on the other hand there should be a way to overcome it. I still don’t understand why removing local pop cap did not remedy this problem, I would believe the overgrowth caused unhappiness should decrease and eventually get gone during late game when local yield quantities are close to world median. Possibly something has to be done with the early game since at that point non-food yields are causing too much unhappiness (according to latest complaints). Maybe the efficiency calculation itself should be exponential as so deficiencies (from world median) are less severe in the early game. Or large food surplus should cause happiness or decrease unhappiness on all levels.

    Anyway, in my (deity) games, acquiring gold – if that is what I want to do - is not difficult at all, why boost it further and make it OP like what happens in Civ 6.
     
  9. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    Poland has nothing to do with the specialist/happiness discussion, its an independent thing, based on the "top and bottom civ" thread, Germany flavored with my own opinion too. Statecraft was seen as too niche and a bit too weak, in comparison to artistry. My suggestion didn't change the niche thing, but atleast it's a small buff. Artistry would be still strong, giving more happiness than the other trees, but not as much as it is now.

    I want to notice, that I think, Version 6-2 base happiness was already good balanced, and simply the numbers had to be adjusted to fit the removal of population modifier. Together with the option to use specialists even if your city would get unhappy, the system could have reached a close to gold status.
    I don't think this is the point. I think the point is the controllability of the food. Even if you stopped growth, you would have gained food by constructing buildings, cause you always have to construct buildings, else you would fall behind in everything.
    Gaining food by growth means, if you stop growth, you also stop the flow of the extra food. So it's under control. You also could change this ability to "save 5% of food after growth" or "5% less food needed to grow", don't pin me on the numbers but it would be literally the same.

    I personally don't have any problem with this policy, but I have to agree, that it can trigger unlinked growth, cause of that I've suggested that change. And you really.... Really overdramatize that policy aspect. In the whole game, you may get around 2000 :c5food:. That is close enough to grow a 21 city to 23, if I remember correctly.

    BTW. A tradition city with 36 food surplus would gain also +12:c5food: per turn, and that's pretty normal at renaissance.
     
  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    In previous versions I could put the excedent food into use with specialists. More excedent food, more specialists. That helped a lot with uncontrolled growth. Even if growth in itself wasn't ideal (an issue for India), at least more food was truly useful.
    Now it's not, and urbanization is to blame. We are all juggling around the inability to work whatever number of specialists, while it would be simply better to not limit the number of specialists by unhappiness (I think G already was fine with it). Urbanization then, it's just more unhappiness in the city, but specialists can still be used.

    If instant food per building in progress scales too much, then why not simply remove the scaling? Maybe give it higher yields in compensation.
     
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    My games last 300-350 turns. If you take the left side first, you take this policy turn 50-ish. So 2,000 food per game would average around 7-8 food per turn for the turns you have the policy, and progress gets another plus 3 from the other policy, which you want to buff to 4. My approximation of "hanging gardens in every city" isn't overly dramatic, it's actually a bit low.
     
  12. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    The average value is fooling you. In most cities you will construct a building in around 5-10 turns, thats in ancient and classical era an average food gain of 1-2 :c5food: per turn and thats ok.
    The 7-8 :c5food: per turn should be normal at the time of the renaissance/industrial age, so it makes no sense to compare this value with the food gain of a weak, early classical wonder.
    In my Inca game, Iam at the brink of the modern era, and most of my cities generate 120+:c5food: per turn. There are only 6 normal buildings available in modern era, this would make a total of 300 :c5food:. So the ability only saves me 2.5 turns of food generation, or is able to generate 1/3 of the necessary food to grow a city from 27 to 28. And this in a WHOLE era. If I had taken tradition, the growth scaler would give me 30-60 extra :c5food: in each city, far more than progress is able to.

    Btw. my suggestion would give in the end less food than the current system, cause the food gain is linked with the finisher, and it needs much more time to get there.

    Edit: If you are having a problem with uncontrollable free food, Iam really wondering why you arnt bringing Tribute policy from Authority to speech. Its hard to estimate, but a city which unlock all workable tiles in range spread over the whole game should be able to generate 1500+:c5food:. Cities on the coast, able to unlock hexes 5 tiles away late in the game should be easily able to generate much much more :c5food: than progress cities.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  13. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Chieftain

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    I concur with @CrazyG that the relationship between growth, happiness, and specialists, is the crux of the issue.

    I started playing Vox Populi around July last year. Over time, I learned that production and culture, not just food and science, had to be prioritized. But, as @CrazyG mentioned once in another thread, the value of each yield changes over time. Production is king for most of the game but science is best in the late game. The challenge is that science is a yield that is obtained largely through specialists. Long term, every civilization needs specialists. While @CrazyG won his 3 pop challenge without specialists, using specialists is required for every win condition since everyone needs science in the late game.

    There is an inconsistency in the happiness/specialist system in that specialists are available (without specific policies or buildings to enable specialists) if a city is over 100% happiness but the happiness system treats a civilization and city as happy if at 75% happiness. This means that I can have a civilization that is "happy," over 75%, not suffering from any penalties, but not be able to work specialists without buildings or specialists to enable free specialists. If I have 10 cities with 5 population, 40 happiness, and 50 unhappiness, and every city has 4 happiness and 5 unhappiness, my civilization and cities are happy but I can't use specialists without building or policies to enable free specialists. This is the direct result f the urbanization mechanic decision from earlier this year and it has reverberating effects.

    On a per city basis, a city without national wonders or guilds can work... 4 specialists after a workshop, garden, and factory? That's enough to work 4 science specialists. But it's not happening naturally under the happiness system for a non small-tall empire.

    Artistry and Freedom are very strong now because they offer an escape from the constraints of the happiness- specialist system. Artistry enables 2 specialists. Freedom does as well.

    I view this mostly as an issue related to the happiness-specialist system but growth compounds this problem because larger cities encounter happiness problems and thus disincentivize growth. Large cities are very unlikely to be over 100% happiness and specialists are thus not available.
     
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  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    What era are you talking about,and are we playing the same patch? I don't know how you are staying happy, my cities have every needs reduction, a lower population, and still couldn't work specialists if I didn't take artistry, even with a religion and a golden age resulting in 0 poverty or boredom. I win games with my (non-tradition capital) cities at 25-ish pop, maybe a bit higher if there is a special circumstance (like a unique improvement).

    You are choosing numbers that make your idea look better. "It's only from 21 to 23 pop!" "Only 1/3 the food of 27 to 28." these aren't nearly as important as 9 to 10 pop, or 15 to 16, which is when progress's food is extremely impactful.

    I checked savegames, here is my bonus food
    Classical era I have 3 and 4.
    Medieval I have only 1 save at 10 (but it looks like there's a bonus for an internal route there, I checked the others and they appear not to have it).
    I have 10 food, 12, 13,
    Industrial era is at 7, but all cities have been going archeologist heavy for a while, and I'm already at the point where I don't care about food. I have a city stagnating at 14 pop, and that's okay. It's working 4 specialists, and every strong tiles. Growing would only give me access to pointless coast, or an off trade route village. I'm not spending all that food and losing happiness to get 3 gold 1 culture per turn, its not even close to worthwhile.

    Those are real, in-game numbers, and they are much higher than you what you claim. Maybe you are working farms instead of mines and still winning (kudos to you, but its still a bad idea). If you haven't tried it yet, try a game where you skip farms. I'm skipping bison in my current game, and in a previous game I skipped improving fish and building lighthouses in several cities. Getting ahead in other yields is just more important.
    Here is the source of the disagreement. I do not, even remotely, value food during the information era, and I'm shocked an experienced player like you would, especially bonus food like this, which cannot feed a specialist. At this point its just a race for science or culture or some other nonsense, food is trivial and your cities should be large enough to work all worthwhile tiles. I've never even had a city without tradition expand to all tiles in the 5th ring.

    Late game food is irrelevant, I don't care about these theoretical numbers. If you think its important you've missed the point entirely. Progress is way ahead of authority for most of the game, frankly most games decided before the modern era, and authority is far weaker at food than progress (progress still gets that 3 per city). When someone posts their picture of a happiness disaster, it's never because their authority city in the atomic era grabbed too much land.

    Progress generates food like crazy during medieval and renaissance, and its food you can't spend on specialists. Its food that ignores growth bonuses or Temple of Artemis or mandirs and many other things. You aren't fixing any of that, you are just making progress far stronger by giving it gold, a yield it wants desperately.
     
  15. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Warlord

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    Thanks for compiling this list. I'll give my opinions.

    -I like the changing of the Customs House/Caravansaries, and the Library/Grocer/Workshop changes (and dropping instant yields from Workshop/Market Trade Route completion).
    -I like the Happiness changes.
    -The Artistry change down to 1 free Specialist is a good move.
    -Changing Gatling Guns/Rifles is probably a good idea.
    -Bringing Progress :c5food: on building completion down is a good move IMO. The gold on birth could go from 15:c5gold: to 20:c5gold: but not more than that I think.
    -I like the Ducal Stable change.
    -I like adding in Religious resilience to Organized Religion.

    Some parts that I think could be looked at (some of these are just opinions, others legitimate balance concerns).
    -:c5science:/:c5culture: is a bit of an odd choice for an Agribusiness, I think we should take the Agribusiness part more literally and make it "+2:c5food: per Land tile, +10% of :c5food: converted to :c5gold:". The Hospital already converts to :c5science:.
    -Please don't remove the -35% Prophet Cost for India! That's a very important part of India's kit to me. I think a needs reduction per pop is all that could be added, no need to rework India.
    -Similarly, I don't think reworking the German/Polish UA is necessary.
    -I don't like the idea of providing :c5faith: as Fealty's scaler, just providing flat :c5faith: like that is a religous steroid. I also don't like the idea of Monasteries becoming buildable, because I treat them as a :c5faith: sink and a way to conserve :c5production:. I like the Monastery's :c5food: also. I think Fealty should mostly stay as is (though your India idea with :c5gold:/:c5science: could fit into Fealty somewhere...).

    I would like to try changing the Castle's +2:c5food: to +2:c5greatperson: Great Merchant points rather than :c5gold:. It would be more interesting.

    -I'm indifferent to the Statecraft change and the Corporation change. I don't really like the Nationalization change though, I think the player should have a little more control over when/how they get their Franchises. I think it should just be brought back down to 1 Franchise per Office again.

    -6:c5food: on Tribute kills the policy's ability to instantly provide cities with 2:c5citizen:. At least have it be 10:c5food:. This is Authority's only source of :c5food:.
     
  16. Bhawb

    Bhawb Chieftain

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    I'd definitely suggest addressing the overall concerns regarding food, growth, specialists, and happiness before anything else since they have massive effects on the rest of the game. I personally think the major problem right now is that food is a major "upkeep" resource for specialists and population, contributes to lowering Distress, and yet indirectly increases unhappiness and has at least 3 different "forms" of food that all have special rules that don't interact with the system properly.

    Also, per India, I don't think much is needed here except making the civ a bit friendlier for the AI, making the civ a bit less forced into one specific early game strategy, and above all fixing the food issues. I do think getting scaling faith instead of pressure (faith increases pressure anyway) would help push the religious aspects of the civ, since right now you just get discounted GP and pressure, and the pressure is basically meaningless except to keep your cities converted. So you're playing a "religious" civ but in most games the only time you have a special interaction is cheaper GPs, picking a Pantheon at the start of the game, and being annoyed you can't buy missionaries. This is unlike civs like Spain, Celts, and Byzantium all of which have constant unique/positive interactions.

    I'm around late Industrial in my current playthrough and I'm doing great based entirely on a massive Tradition capital of well over 50 pop due to a flood plain start. I'm getting over 1k growth food per turn, and growing about once every 3-4 turns while working every tile and all specialists.
     
  17. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    Don't understand me wrong, this list is only a suggestion, and not every idea is mine. I've tried to put together what is currently discussed and deliver an acceptable, balanced solution.
    The happiness issues with the current system will be fixed and G already said he will remove the limitation for specialists, even if the city gets more unhappy. This will fix a lot of concerns.

    I don't think food from progress is overpowered, but tried to deliver a softened version and increase the controllability of the tree, which is in my eyes a bigger critical point. I have no problem if the scaling food from progress is reduced or removed, but this should also lead to food/growth reductions in the other 2 ancient trees to compensate. This is my only concern.

    Agribusiness is an open field, your suggestion sounds good too, was just a first thought.
    The UA of India can disappear or even push you in disadvantage in bad circumstances, especially on other maps than pangäa or with large continents. At the moment, I see only a Prophecy/Holy Land/Artistry strategy as valiable. Also the AI seems to have a hard time in using the UA correctly and cant handle the limitation for missionaries proper. I wanted to solve this.
    +1 :c5faith: per specialist is able to give you far more :c5faith: than a scaler would be able to (atleast if the happiness is back to normal level). Buffing specialists is a bit strange on a tree that seems to be directed towards an anti-specialist tree. And making monasteries able to be constructed gives the tree back some attractivity to warmongers, cause at the moment you cant build those in puppets. Solution.... Monasteries can be fully purchased by faith or constructed by only some hammers. Merchant Points on Castles seems legit.
    This would make the tenet useless for any civ with small or medium size. On a standard map, having 10 cities is already a big empire, but you would still throw away around 8 possible franchises, if you pick the tenet. And most trade route bonuses dont work for ITR.
     
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Alberta, Canada
    I really don’t like your proposed changes to India except the addition of some needs reduction. There has been a fairly unanimous agreement that India has a happiness isssue, and needs tools to deal with that, but none of the other things in your India rework have been discussed, much less been given popular assent.

    If you want this discussion to be treated as a summary of the past month’s debate then you should prune your list. Right now it’s fairly obvious this is either a product of some false-consensus effect, or you’re using this thread as a Trojan horse to give your own ideas more legitimacy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,977
    This comment is really unnecessary. If you want to ask to prune the list, just suggest it, no reason to imply malicious intent.


    CIV Changes
    In terms of my thoughts, civ wise, I feel the only two civs that have general consensus for change are China and Venice. China seems to have two camps: "Overpowered" and "Not OP, but in the top tier". So a nerf seems in order. Likewise, Venice has "garbage for everyone" and "garbage for AI, ok for humans"...which to me does suggest some kind of change. So I don't think we need to look at civ changes outside of those, at least for now. So talking about Venice, the two primary complaints are:

    1) Venice doesn't grab enough land, allowing other civs too much power.
    2) Venice doesn't have enough supply to field an effective army.

    Number 1 is a tough one, number 2 is straightforward. You suggested a doubling of supply in the capital. Personally I think a simple +5 supply bonus or something would be plenty, but I don't have a strong feeling about it. The other suggested changes to me don't address the core problem. Venice seems pretty solid if the main two issues are dealt with.

    Food, Specialists, and Happiness
    I've been thinking about this one a great deal. Ultimately, I'm on board with G's idea from before, lets start with specialists always generate -1 unhappiness, period. But...we remove the "can't work specialists when unhappy". I think that fixes a lot of the core issue right now about when to use specialists and the like. And we can remove urbanization reductors as a concept. Keep it nice and simple. You want specialists, you pay for them with food and happiness.

    This gives food some of its innate value back, and helps curb overgrowth. So with that in mind, I'm not in favor of some of the direct food reductions here (or the ones CrazyG proposed). However, I do think removing the instant food is still a good idea. CrazyG gave a good explanation as to the problems with instant food, and I think those critiques hold up.

    Policies
    I'll echo CrazyG's notes here, I don't think we need to be adjusting policies too much right now until we get other things sorted. The instant food aside, I say leave the rest alone for now. Once everything else is addressed, than happy to give this another look as needed.

    Buildings
    In general, I like where the ITR bonuses are placed in this proposal, with the exception of Seaport/TS. I would change this to the factory, as I feel like that building can always use more "direct" value compared to Seaports and Train Stations. The +1 happy on the Grocer seems like a good idea to tackle happiness at a key area and give the building some love.

    Custom House / Caravansary: Good adjustments, though I prefer to give the CH just 1 more gold and remove the merchant gold bonus (same with the bank). If merchants are too weak, than just buff them. I don't mind the research lab "buff all specialists", but I think just doing the merchant is a lame bonus.

    Agribusiness: Seems good to me. I would take it just for the food to gold conversion, the +2 to food on things is just a bit of gravy.

    Units
    Riflemen: I say go with the mounted bonus, free ambush promotion, and +3 CS (yes +3). At first I thought about more niche bonuses for the unit, but the more I think about it, the more I'm like "this unit just needs to be straight up more powerful". Gatling Guns are way more flexible, landships still more powerful and more mobile. With this change, they at least help to counter the mounted and armored units floating on the map. And by counter I mean take a hit, because mounted units are so mobile at this phase in the game that its hard for a rifleman to get a hit in. I think adding in the ambush promotion also has good flavor, the idea of units having to rush in and take the treads off of tanks, or flank it and sneak in explosives. That is something a "melee" unit can do that a more ranged unit can't (they just sit back and plink off the armor).
     
    Arthur Jama, vyyt, Bromar1 and 5 others like this.
  20. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,378
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    Pretty much this.

    I'd also simplify happiness bonuses. We have needs reductions, unhappiness from needs reductions, urbanización reduction and direct happiness production. That's crazy hard to explain, folks.
    I'd say to stick with modifiers reductions or unhappiness reductions, not both.
     

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