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Summer 2017 Patch and Combat AI Still a Joke - What Can We Do?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Bleser, Aug 4, 2017.

  1. Bleser

    Bleser Prince

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    Although the AI seems to fly through the tech tree now, which I viewed as more of a challenge to keep up, the combat AI has seen no improvement whatsoever so it really doesn't matter (even though some have mentioned they might send a plane your way on occasion now).

    In my latest game the leader, Russia, had a vast empire and was two eras ahead of me, even with some Cossack/AT Troop armies running around (I had musketmen at best). I sailed over with some frigates (they should have had battleships), pounded their costal cities w/o any opposition for 10-15 turns until the walls fell and took the city. They did send over those Cossack armies, but they did *nothing*. They ran around looking at the land they lost as I shot at them with my frigates. They could have easily re-taken the city with one or two attacks, but never even tried. I have no idea what this combat AI is doing.

    Now, centuries later from that first war with plenty of time to rebuild, Russia has a combat strength of 25 to my 1,500+ and is still plopping down new wonders in front of my armies as I steamroll. Sigh.

    I don't want to make this another "complain about the AI thread", so has anyone tried any recent modifications or changes to unit costs to help? My thoughts before starting my next game:
    • If we use simple mods to make all units much cheaper (something like 50% or 75% cheaper), will the AI build more of them? I figure if they have a bunch they'll still be some kind of a challenge?
    • Slowing down the tech pace - multiple threads on this - I wonder if everything slows down a bit they'll have more time to focus on building units for that era rather than just jumping to the next round of district buildings?
    • Something else? We need a more mature version of AI+, really, that just teaches the AI that they need to maintain an army as an absolute priority and USE THE UNITS against their enemies when under attack.
    Other thoughts?
     
    bumpyglint, ZubieMaster and oedali like this.
  2. DizzKneeLand33

    DizzKneeLand33 Fall from Heaven 2 still rocks

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    Before the patch, I played my own mod where I slowed down the tech pace to 2.5 times slower than normal, the civics I went by era (2,2,2.5,2.5,3,3,3.5,3.5 times slower), and the building times were exactly the same as normal (the game was on epic speed, so normal build times, but much slower science and civics). As a result, the AI had time to build monstrous armies of units, and at least the game was more of a challenge as a result. The AI had time to build was the key issue.

    One side effect was that every last city seemed to have a Holy Site, no choices made but to build them (which makes other districts less in number due to the limitations on population), but then again, that's a problem with the base game AI that is beyond my expertise.

    The other side effect was that Gilgamesh could become "Spaceship Gil" if only the AI knew how to win -- those tile improvements in a game that slow made him a science monster.

    So, that was the only way the game stayed fun for me. At least at that point Deity was a challenge, as it should be.

    EDIT: I also added 5 more belief systems (20 total) and played with 12 religions, so the race to religion wasn't as critical -- shouldn't everyone have a chance at a religion? I can't imagine only 7 on a huge Earth map. So, 13/22 civs/CS on a large map with 12 religions. I also increased the religious pressure mechanic (this may have been done in the patch from what I hear, I need to check the code) and made religious pressure from victories increase to 8 tiles out from 6 (since this is another mechanic that should be based on map size, not something arbitrary -- on a huge map it should be 10 tiles or so).
     
  3. Janskey

    Janskey Prince

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    Hmm... in Leaders.xml there's this line:
    Maybe if we cranked that up to 11 for all civs :)
    Don't know what the actual scale is, but might be worth testing.
     
  4. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    I wonder how bringing back unit stacking but only for AI would work.
     
  5. DizzKneeLand33

    DizzKneeLand33 Fall from Heaven 2 still rocks

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    LOL, that might just be interesting. :)

    As for unit stacking only for the AI, that would be crazy OP for the AI and would result in many ragequits.
     
  6. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    Ok then moderate or capped unit stacking for the AI. Maybe the developers are specifically gearing the game to make people play together by making the AI unbearable.
     
  7. Balkans

    Balkans Warlord

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    I waited this patch as the last hope of Firaxis getting something, ANYTHING, back to the community. Sadly, with this patch the civ vi story for me is finished. I regret buying deluxe edition, and regret experiencing such almost insanely marshmallow land politically correct and mute company with almost the same fan base. I don't know what happened to civ FANATICS, does this word don't stand for anything in this community? This company and game, now after all the patches should be buried under the criticism and negative reviews but it gets some lukewarm pat on the back no matter the issues it has or continues not to solve...
    ...since this is my last post about civ vi, i find it convenient to answer your question - what can we do?
    I can speak only for myself and i will sure as hell move on. Civilization VI is a beautiful game but its issues, that are obviously unsolvable with company that will never ever invest resources just to finish or polish what they already sold in insanely overpriced underwhelming product, make it average at best, if even that. I scratch my head week after week reading posts from members of our community wondering if we even play the same game.
    See you all guys at civ vii, hopefully with some fresh ideas and hopefully new communication policy and treatment of community. Hopefully, one day civ will get back to it's hard core felling where experts and noobs can have the same amounts of fun and challenge. Just a tip, Firaxis, apparently you lurk these forums. Stop wasting resources on stuff that are just an ear or eye candies. Invest into developing the mechanics of the game! Who cares how good the model of a leader is if the gameplay is non existent...but whatever, people like it as it is, and i guess that's the way the things will stay. It's ok, as Sullla said, on his good by to ciV, there's plenty of fish in the world of gaming! GL and have a good one.
     
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  8. Bleser

    Bleser Prince

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    This sounds like exactly what I am wanting to try. Do you have your mod available to others, or can you share what files you changed to make this happen? I haven't spent a lot of time learning how to mod Civ6; I know there are XML files where I can update values just like I did in Civ5, but I think much of the mechanics are accessed with SQL - just a hint in the right direction to achieve the same that you did would be great.

    That being said, when the AI had these monstrous armies, did they actually attack? As in not just run around and pillage random farms, jump in the lake and wait to be sunk?

    Yeah, I don't want to go here in this thread. :) But since you brought it up, I usually dismiss this one with the simple fact that the Civ5 AI was very capable at overrunning you and they had the same 1UPT limitation.

    I remember many Civ5 games where I would have to quit knowing all was lost when the AI got Great War Bombers or Battleships an era before I did; they would build them and send large fleets and I was doomed. Civ5 AI was very effective with air attacks and could level your armies/cities if you didn't have AA setup.

    I've never had the "I'm doomed" feeling in Civ6, and that is what I/we are trying to get back (I think!).
     
    oedali likes this.
  9. playshogi

    playshogi Emperor

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    I'm going to try and hold off buying any more civ products until the Complete edition is 75% off. Meanwhile, I'll be waiting for Remnants of the Precursors which I think will be very good.
     
  10. Sprenk

    Sprenk Prince

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    You lost me at "insanely marshmallow land politically correct" :) Yes, it's best you just move on. We'll manage somehow.
     
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  11. DizzKneeLand33

    DizzKneeLand33 Fall from Heaven 2 still rocks

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    @Bleser here is the SQL I used -- it's just my personal mod for changes, so I didn't publish anything, knowing the patch would break things. I haven't tried post patch, but these entries are simple enough that I think nothing would have changed here:

    Spoiler :
    UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*2.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_ANCIENT';
    UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*2.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_CLASSICAL';
    UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*2.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_MEDIEVAL';
    UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*2.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_RENAISSANCE';
    UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*2.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_INDUSTRIAL';
    UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*2.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_MODERN';
    UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*2.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_ATOMIC';
    UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*2.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_INFORMATION';

    UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*2.0 WHERE EraType ='ERA_ANCIENT';
    UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*2.0 WHERE EraType ='ERA_CLASSICAL';
    UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*2.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_MEDIEVAL';
    UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*2.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_RENAISSANCE';
    UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*3.0 WHERE EraType ='ERA_INDUSTRIAL';
    UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*3.0 WHERE EraType ='ERA_MODERN';
    UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*3.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_ATOMIC';
    UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*3.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_INFORMATION';


    Also, I borrowed the 3x great person coding for this (that's a mod you can subscribe to I think), but here is the code for that (in XML):

    Spoiler :

    <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
    <GameInfo>
    <Eras>
    <Update>
    <Where EraType="ERA_ANCIENT" />
    <Set GreatPersonBaseCost="90" />
    </Update>
    <Update>
    <Where EraType="ERA_CLASSICAL" />
    <Set GreatPersonBaseCost="180" />
    </Update>
    <Update>
    <Where EraType="ERA_MEDIEVAL" />
    <Set GreatPersonBaseCost="360" />
    </Update>
    <Update>
    <Where EraType="ERA_RENAISSANCE" />
    <Set GreatPersonBaseCost="720" />
    </Update>
    <Update>
    <Where EraType="ERA_INDUSTRIAL" />
    <Set GreatPersonBaseCost="1460" />
    </Update>
    <Update>
    <Where EraType="ERA_MODERN" />
    <Set GreatPersonBaseCost="1980" />
    </Update>
    <Update>
    <Where EraType="ERA_ATOMIC" />
    <Set GreatPersonBaseCost="2880" />
    </Update>
    <Update>
    <Where EraType="ERA_INFORMATION" />
    <Set GreatPersonBaseCost="3960" />
    </Update>
    </Eras>
    </GameInfo>


    Of course, you can adjust the numbers to whatever you see fit! I was really gung ho about modding this game, but quite frankly after the last patch (and the continuing AI fail, imho) I'm just going to wait and see what an expansion brings. I'm not feeling very marshmallowy anymore.... ;)

    Back to my Fall from Heaven 2 game....
     
  12. redrum68

    redrum68 Chieftain

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    I would think slowing down tech and policy cost would benefit the human more than the AI given that the human's greatest advantage currently is tactical combat and you'd have more time to take advantage of the AI. The AI's only chance in the current game is to kill the player in the first 20-30 turns or hope to out tech/policy them by becoming a run away.

    @DizzKneeLand33 Also maybe you should try playing a real game like TripleA :)
     
  13. kb27787

    kb27787 Emperor

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    A simple solution? Play on deity against duplicate leader settings scythia... I'm sure the AI doesn't need tactical ability if every tile has a horse or helicopter on it...
     
  14. LuckyAC

    LuckyAC Immortal

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    At this point, ships are a little bit of a special case (maybe aircraft, too, but I have never used them). The AI makes NO attempt to counter them, so technology and army size are irrelevant. But with land armies, there have been significant improvements, and in a land vs and battle on deity, if you let them get too far ahead, it can actually be dangerous, even with walls.
     
  15. cazaderonus

    cazaderonus Actual Dad.

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    I agree. Got surprised by an insane poland army in my nubia game. I had a lot of crossbows, and some weak but numerous melee units and she hunted my units like a crazy person. Had to give up a city to regroup and try to counter. I managed to limit the damage and retake the city but it required some thinking, change of'plans and emergency chopping to solve this.

    When i finally got to negociate peace though, she was willing to give me basically everything despite the fact that the war basically was a draw game. Even worse, i decided to take advantage of this and get 2 cities from england that she had annihilated before. Didnt liberate them and i found myself with 2 cities stuck because "occupied"..... On the deal screen i didnt even saw those two citied in my cities list so couldnt even trade them. The third city i took from the peace deal, a polish settled one, had no issue though. So i guess i found a bug there.

    But really, the peace deal she agreed to was just overkill compared to the scenario of the war and the remzining forces on both side. She couldnt push me anymore but she wasnt in any way threatened.

    Conclusion, i think ai behavior using units is alot better. She hunted range units with her horses and knights, pushed them to a city and then took the horses back toward the city she wanted. Catapults were used very well, coming in behind all the knights and melee. I was "pleasantly" surprided by this. I guess i wont ever start a game without a city dedicated to unit spamming. Also, early campuses will be pretty important now to have a decent army tech wise. I guess i wont just spam commercial hubs instantly now. She dowed me maybe 2 3 turns after i upgraded to crossbows. If she had done this even just 5 turns earlier.....god.
     
  16. Bleser

    Bleser Prince

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    Thanks for sharing this. I haven't modded Civ6 yet in this way so I'll go read some tutorials about where to execute these statements and ensure they are in use. Thanks again!

    This does sound promising. I wonder if the map type plays a big part in how much of a threat they are; if you are on Pangea they can just attack you without much planning - if you're on more of an island map and they dump all of their units into the water it is much easier to stop them, so the map will help determine how hard/easy it is going to be for the human.
     
  17. manarod

    manarod Chieftain

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    For me there are three major problems

    The ai can't handle navy and airplanes

    The cost of military units are way too high and increase too much. In marathon a caravel could cost 40 turns! Good luck having more than two. The cost should be like 70% less and with a far less in increase of cost. in a war every unit i lost it's a tragedy. It takes too much to creates units.

    The archer units are too powerfull. There should be some form of retaliation. The human player can win without losing anything!
     
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  18. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Ask for the dll to see if its fixable to begin with
     
  19. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Not sure if it's the patch or just luck, but I'll have a good test of this in my game. I started on an offshore island to the main continent, but Russia has been steamrolling, and wiped out Scythia, most of the US, and about half of Japan. And Arabia's already launched their first space mission. So now my goal is to build an army and see if I can muster up enough to take them all out. So certainly if we complained in the past that the AI can't take cities, I think they've at least fixed that problem.

    I'm hoping that my Petra/Ruhr/Venetian Arsenal fueled Capital, which can crank out 2 battleship armadas every 3 turns, will be enough to take Russia down. It's going to be a fun end game, at the very least.
     
  20. Bleser

    Bleser Prince

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    I thought I would update this thread now that I've played ~1.5 games with my own mod (just SQL commands) to increase tech/civic costs and greatly reduce unit costs. The changes have been FANTASTIC.

    • Based on suggestions from members in this thread and others, I added lines to dynamically increase civic/tech costs per era going from 2.0x (ancient) to 3.5x (information), gradually by about 0.25 per era (a few jumps of 0.5 later). This has been a great way to slow the game down and most civs are in the eras you would 'expect' at Emperor difficulty based on date. In my current game it is a mix of Renaissance and Industrial around 1600.
    • I reduced the boost value from 50 to 25; this makes it still 'worth it' to complete the eurekas but you don't make them so powerful.
    • This line has made the biggest impact to difficulty: UPDATE Units SET Cost = Cost*0.33 WHERE FormationClass <> 'FORMATION_CLASS_CIVILIAN';. Now, at Marathon game speed, you have tons of units on the map and an AI that is truly difficult to defeat. Each of my wars has waves of units to fight with real strategy at play and they keep building units during the war. Once you defeat the first wave they keep coming and taking cities is very hard as you never simply defeat their lone army like in the stock game. They still make some silly moves but they are far less detrimental to the AI's play since they have so many more units at their disposal which makes up for some of their poor choices.
    • A few other small changes - like letting Settlers retreat instead of being captured (always though this was way too powerful for the human) and adding a few tech prereqs to slow down era jumps.
    When I started this thread I had lost almost all hope that the AI would ever be difficult in Civ6 - but these small changes have transformed the game and it is truly a joy/challenge now where you need a tech lead to win a war over the AI - otherwise it will likely end in stalemate with no ground taken.

    Hope this helps others!
     
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