Summer 2017 Patch and Combat AI Still a Joke - What Can We Do?

[Japper007]

Mind uploading the SQL to the Steam Workshop as a mod? I'm sure I could get the changes in eventually, but a lot of people are even less technically minded than I am.

 

[rschissler]

• This line has made the biggest impact to difficulty: UPDATE Units SET Cost = Cost*0.33 WHERE FormationClass <> 'FORMATION_CLASS_CIVILIAN';. Now, at Marathon game speed, you have tons of units on the map and an AI that is truly difficult to defeat. Each of my wars has waves of units to fight with real strategy at play and they keep building units during the war. Once you defeat the first wave they keep coming and taking cities is very hard as you never simply defeat their lone army like in the stock game. They still make some silly moves but they are far less detrimental to the AI's play since they have so many more units at their disposal which makes up for some of their poor choices.

Can you explain this a little more? Like, what was it before, what does it do exactly, does it help the human player too?

 

[Olleus]

It cuts down to 33% the cost of all non-civilian units.

I can only see that leading to infinite carpets of doom. I guess it would make the AI better in the sense that it's hard for any player to use tactics and strategy when wars become a slogfest.

 

[PYITE]

It cuts down to 33% the cost of all non-civilian units.

I can only see that leading to infinite carpets of doom. I guess it would make the AI better in the sense that it's hard for any player to use tactics and strategy when wars become a slogfest.

Can you please help me understand how the code works?

Is the FORMATION_CLASS_CIVILIAN part what gets excluded from the cost reduction?

So if it were FORMATION_CLASS_MILITARY then all non military units would get the discount?

 

[mandamin]

Can you please help me understand how the code works?

Is the FORMATION_CLASS_CIVILIAN part what gets excluded from the cost reduction?

So if it were FORMATION_CLASS_MILITARY then all non military units would get the discount?

Yes, <> is SQL for "not equal to." I know almost nothing about SQL, but for some reason I have that one.

 

[PibbZ]

If we use simple mods to make all units much cheaper (something like 50% or 75% cheaper), will the AI build more of them? I figure if they have a bunch they'll still be some kind of a challenge?

I just aborted a Huge/Marathon game where I tried a mod that cut all unit and improvement cost in half. By 0 AD, the entire map was filled with Warriors, Slingers and Scouts, and I mean literally _FILLED_. One of my auto-explore scouts was stuck, there was no available tiles to move him around. I declared on everyone to see if they would funnel all their units towards me, but they ran around like headless chickens and poked my defenses with some random ranged units.

Very disappointing results to say the least. Even with the largest army poossible, they still fail to pose a significant threat.

 

[stinkubus]

LOL did you get a screenshot?

 

[PibbZ]

LOL did you get a screenshot?

Not sure if it was me you asked, but yep, I got this from a little earlier in the same game (using reveal all to unlock all the map for debugging purposes)

Spoiler screenshot :

 

[oedali]

Please turn into a mod and upload! I love the changes you made. I already use Settlers retreat mod as that's a must. I like the idea of reducing eureka boost. And cheaper units might be good but I feel like ancient/classical unit costs are reasonable and it jumps too much starting in medieval. Doesn't cheaper units lead to AI going bankrupt though, as they tend to neglect / deprioritize commercial districts?

 

[Bleser]

Mind uploading the SQL to the Steam Workshop as a mod? I'm sure I could get the changes in eventually, but a lot of people are even less technically minded than I am.

I've never uploaded a mod before but will look into this. Honestly I want to play a few more games with it and tweak some values before I consider it done as my playing sample size is still pretty small. However, most of my changes are ideas taken from other mods I've seen so it isn't that crazy.

Please turn into a mod and upload! I love the changes you made. I already use Settlers retreat mod as that's a must. I like the idea of reducing eureka boost. And cheaper units might be good but I feel like ancient/classical unit costs are reasonable and it jumps too much starting in medieval. Doesn't cheaper units lead to AI going bankrupt though, as they tend to neglect / deprioritize commercial districts?

I agree that Settlers Retreat is a musts just to make the human advantage a bit lower so you can't just populate your continent with their mistakes. I'd even be fine going back to them turning into workers but I'm not sure if that will happen via a mod in the future.

I have seen no issues with too many units with respect to bankruptcy or tactics. If anything all it has done has made the AI & City States always have some kind of army, and during wars they will produce ranged units and such just like the human player would do to try and push you back. I've even seen city states produce enough crossbows during a war versus the AI to save themselves even after their walls were taken down. And yes, I've now seen the AI use catapults to reduce walls and capture cities on a regular basis.

In my current game Scythia has Knight armies that are a nightmare to defeat. She sends in three or four at a time to surround my musketmen and wipe them out. They use decent tactics now that they have more at their disposal even if they aren't perfect.

I think my tech/civic cost value increase on Marathon speed with the reduced unit costs has lined up well, and what I've observed is a step in the right direction considering the stock state of Civ6 combat AI.

Can you explain this a little more? Like, what was it before, what does it do exactly, does it help the human player too?

As others have mentioned, it makes all units in the game cost 33% of their original value. This cost affects both production cost and monetary cost (i.e. when purchasing with gold). I originally used 50% but found going cheaper helped a bit more.

Can you please help me understand how the code works?

Is the FORMATION_CLASS_CIVILIAN part what gets excluded from the cost reduction?

So if it were FORMATION_CLASS_MILITARY then all non military units would get the discount?

Correct, the command is stating "find all units in the table that aren't civilians and update their cost to be 33% of their current value."

So, a worker's cost is unchanged but a swordsman that was a cost of 100 is updated to 33.

I just aborted a Huge/Marathon game where I tried a mod that cut all unit and improvement cost in half. By 0 AD, the entire map was filled with Warriors, Slingers and Scouts, and I mean literally _FILLED_. One of my auto-explore scouts was stuck, there was no available tiles to move him around. I declared on everyone to see if they would funnel all their units towards me, but they ran around like headless chickens and poked my defenses with some random ranged units.

Very disappointing results to say the least. Even with the largest army poossible, they still fail to pose a significant threat.

Odd, I've seen nothing like this. I mean, they have armies now, but absolutely nothing like this. I don't know if this is a result of my game speed or other changes, or maybe the patch level when you tried? I've only done this with the latest .167 patch.

If anyone cares, until I make this an official mod, here is the SQL for the full mod in its current state:

/* Technologies are more expensive in all eras. */
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*2.0 WHERE EraType ='ERA_ANCIENT';
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*2.0 WHERE EraType ='ERA_CLASSICAL';
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*2.25 WHERE EraType ='ERA_MEDIEVAL';
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*2.25 WHERE EraType ='ERA_RENAISSANCE';
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*2.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_INDUSTRIAL';
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*2.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_MODERN';
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*3.0 WHERE EraType ='ERA_ATOMIC';
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost = Cost*3.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_INFORMATION';

/* Civics are 2.0x - 3.5x more expensive in all increasing costs per era. */
UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*2.0 WHERE EraType ='ERA_ANCIENT';
UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*2.0 WHERE EraType ='ERA_CLASSICAL';
UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*2.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_MEDIEVAL';
UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*2.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_RENAISSANCE';
UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*3.0 WHERE EraType ='ERA_INDUSTRIAL';
UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*3.0 WHERE EraType ='ERA_MODERN';
UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*3.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_ATOMIC';
UPDATE Civics SET Cost = Cost*3.5 WHERE EraType ='ERA_INFORMATION';

/* Reduce boost percentage to stop blasting through eras. */
UPDATE Boosts SET Boost = 25;

/* Reduce military unit costs */  
UPDATE Units SET Cost = Cost*0.33 WHERE FormationClass <> 'FORMATION_CLASS_CIVILIAN';

/* Let the settlers retreat */
UPDATE Units SET CanRetreatWhenCaptured = 1    WHERE UnitType = 'UNIT_SETTLER';
DELETE FROM UnitCaptures WHERE CapturedUnitType = 'UNIT_SETTLER';

/* Kill some bad beelines */
INSERT INTO TechnologyPrereqs (Technology, PrereqTech) VALUES ('TECH_CARTOGRAPHY', 'TECH_MATHEMATICS');

/* Spread the civs out */
UPDATE GlobalParameters SET Value = 12 WHERE Name = 'START_DISTANCE_MAJOR_CIVILIZATION';

Cheers!

 

[slowcar]

Not sure if it was me you asked, but yep, I got this from a little earlier in the same game (using reveal all to unlock all the map for debugging purposes)

Spoiler screenshot :

View attachment 476298

This looks a lot like the Civ5 Battle Royale, a nice carpet of units as SG8 AIs were prone to produce. Maybe a bit too early though

 

[stinkubus]

Not sure if it was me you asked, but yep, I got this from a little earlier in the same game (using reveal all to unlock all the map for debugging purposes)

Spoiler screenshot :

View attachment 476298

That is incredible. Did any of the AI end up going to war after all those units were built? Watching the carnage would be fun.