Sun Tzu or Leo's?

[eldar]

I'm currently playing a game as China, and will soon learn Invention. I have a city with about 6 turns to go on Sun Tzu (which could be converted to Leo's of course), and I expect to complete it unless an AI gets a leader before then (don't see it happening, they're all likely researching Feudalism or Invention). Anyway, let's just say with high confidence that I'm going to get the wonder.

I've secured my sizable starting landmass, and all future military operations will be conducted off-continent. I have access to both Horses and Iron (multiple sources). After Invention, I'll be going Mono->Chivalry and most likely stopping there. I don't anticipate getting my GA until I win a battle with a Rider.

So the choice is: Sun Tzu, or Leo's.

What do you think?

 

[vmxa]

How many barracks do you have or expect to have on your landmass? That determines how much it is worth to you per turn. It won't pay for them on other land.

It is expensive to upgrade horses even with Leo. It is not expensive to up grade knights without Leo. I would not expect to upgrade slow movers in any great numbers.

Now the final thing I look at is the added gpt savings from Sun as that helps my research, if I am doing any. I don't pay much attention to the savings on the upgrades as I may not do many and I may not even need them.

It is likely from what you say, that you could get both. You can only get both, if you take Sun first.

 

[eldar]

Yeah, actually, looking at it now, I think I should be able to snag both.

Sun Tzu will stop any cascades (no AI knows Invention or Theology yet and all Ancient Wonders are built), and the city it's building in is doing 25spt and had SoZ in it (so I'm not losing out on unit production). Plus I will hit my GA in the next 10 turns or so.

So after voting for Leo's, I think what I will do is go ahead and complete Sun Tzu (it is now guaranteed), then start Leo's.

I have 35 or so Horses to upgrade (more by the time I get Chivalry), but to start with cash will be used to rush some boats.

But... I need Astronomy eventually. Guess I should build a few Libraries!!

 

[thetrooper]

I would go for Sun Tzu in your case. Let the AI build Leo and capture that one. It's what I call a 'global' wonder (i.e. it's effect is not dependent on landmass distribution).

Isn't it nice to have those pre-hospital 25 spt cities?

 

[TheOverseer714]

Used to be, Sun Tzu's was the apple of my eye, I'd be overjoyed if I got it, crushed if I got beat to it. Now it is more of hoping it gets built on the other continent or by a neighbor that you can "borrow" it from. If I could build both, then I would, but overall, Leo's is more useful. The half priced upgrades worldwide are really nice compared to saving 5-10 gt for free barracks on one continent. I voted Leo's, but in this specific case, both are worth building.

 

[CommandoBob]

I don't do a lot of upgrades, to the point of keeping eArchers around to witness the building of the Apollo Program, so the usefulness of Leonardo's is rather limited. (Now, in Civ2, where it gave free upgrades, wow, that's something!)

Best use of Sun Tzu is when you're warring a bunch and taking new cities. The free barracks, and the 1 turn healing, is very nice. Building vet units is good, but normally the better cities are making units and already have a barracks; adding a free barracks in the 2nd tier cities doesn't do that much. Selling current barracks and not paying anymore upkeep helps the cash flow and allows for more gold to rush units, if needed.

I didn't read your first post.

In your case, with Sun Tzu, you can make sure that any unit built is veteran, so you don't have to worry about attacking with a Regular and having it die when the 'normal' unit status (veteran) would not have had a problem. Load 'em up, ship 'em across and run 'em over. Leonardo's would let you upgrade cheaper but rushing newer units might be just as cheap.

 

[eldar]

In this game, I'm ending up having my cake and eating it!

I've also been reminded how annoying island AIs can be - and this is "only" Emperor!! Still I have my beachhead now (I had to demolish the Hanging Gardens though )

Spoiler The Wonders of Beijing :

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I don't think there is anything much better than drowning out any kind of opposition with about 150-200 riders (or cavs later). And the only way to do that is via heavy use of upgrading.

It is probably a good idea to build 'cheap' galleys as long as you can, and upgrade those as well.

 

[eldar]

Galley = 30; Caravel = 40. Seeing as my coast is mostly corrupt, that's what my coastal towns are building.

Currently I have 33 Horsemen and 14 Riders. Enough for the current opponents, but not for the next lot who will certainly have Muskets by the time I get to them. Might be an idea to get them fighting each other.

 

[vmxa]

I don't think there is anything much better than drowning out any kind of opposition with about 150-200 riders (or cavs later). And the only way to do that is via heavy use of upgrading.

It is probably a good idea to build 'cheap' galleys as long as you can, and upgrade those as well.

What in the world size map is that one? 200 units is massive in most games.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

What in the world size map is that one? 200 units is massive in most games.

I've had one on a large 60% pangea, and one on a huge 60% pangea. Both with good starts against deity civs.

 

[Spoonwood]

I vote Leo's. If you went to Military Tradition, you can actually build your armies a bit cheaper... though not quite as fast as buying them. With Leo's it costs 75 gold to upgrade a horse to a cavalry, and you can disband a cavalry in your army city for 20 shields... so 20 shields for 75 gold, as opposed to buying 20 sheilds for 80 gold. Or slews of riders or shooters drowning out the opposition as Emsworth suggests. Of course, you can also upgrade trebuchets to cannons for 15 gold with Leo's and galleys as Emsworth suggests.

With China, the disconnect-reconnect works even better, since they're industrious (in other words, you need fewer workers working on such a project). And Sun Tzu's has somewhat less value, since barracks cost only 20 shields.