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Super-early WC rush...

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Ramesses-Rules, Jan 1, 2013.

  1. Ramesses-Rules

    Ramesses-Rules King

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    I am experimenting with an unconventional early War Chariot rush strategy. I absolutely hate Capac. Unless he gets crappy geography, he is always a pain in the neck. So, I decided to tech AH and immediately build a couple War Chariots and declare on him. No stack. Just a couple WC's to pillage every resource in his two cities and keep him pinned down, while I use the pillage gold to otherwise expand normally. I am building Libraries, Settlers, Workers, etc. and just enough additional WC's to keep him backward. I want to expand to 4 cities, tech HBR, and then attack with a stack of Horse Archers. Is this a crazy plan?
     
  2. Peachrocks

    Peachrocks Too Fast For Blazing

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    No, but what might be better particularly if no one likes him is to take a cease fire and continually steal his workers. Though really you could probably kill him outright with something as strong as WC's.
     
  3. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    With WCs you should be taking out HC completely and someone else as well. On lower levels just take the whole map.
     
  4. Ramesses-Rules

    Ramesses-Rules King

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    Well, I play Warlords expansion at Immortal level. So long as I have quick access to WC's and the neighbor is reasonably close at hand (and not protective), the conventional WC rush (build up 12-15 units before declaring) normally works pretty well. I could have done that in this game, but wanted to try this experiment.

    Here are the potential advantages (not yet confirmed)...

    1. I can keep teching at max rate throughout the war. The conventional wisdom is that you cut your tech to zero during the war, because spamming WC's constantly puts a strain on the economy. True.

    2. Because I can continue to build Settlers, Workers, Libraries, etc. during the early stages of the war, I don't fall behind the other civs so much in advancement as in the conventional approach.

    3. Because I am getting out a couple Settlers soon after declaring, I can settle some key locations while they are still available. On this particular map, which has other civs besides Capac nearby, they will claim all the metal locations before the war ends. Without metal, I will be vulnerable to them later.

    4. Once I get to 4 cities and HBR, I should be able to take out Capac pretty efficiently. Meanwhile, he has put out a satellite settlement in a good location, so keeping him alive for awhile is helping my expansion, since that I count that as one of "my" cities.

    It will be instructive to see what my final "finish date" for the war is compared to the conventional approach. Also, how many cities I end up with and where I stand with economy and tech advancement by the end of the war. I will reload from the start and replay the game to get the comparative data. This should be interesting.:)
     
  5. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    You can rush people on deity warlords with war chariots.

    Horse achers cost twice as much but have 1 more strength. Build the stable if you like, but don't build horse archers over war chariots (unless you want to kill siege)
     
  6. Funky

    Funky Emperor

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    This "peaceful rush" strategy would be good if you can't get into the enemy cities, e.g. when you rush with bowmen, holkans, dog soldiers etc. With war chariots though you are strong enough and building only a few more chariots, which are cheap enough, should allow you to easily conquer the cities.

    1. Your tech rate might suffer a few rounds, but then it's all over, as opposed to having a drawn-out war.

    2. With the settlers you build meanwhile you build cities that you could have conquered in the first place.

    3. If the only available metal is close to a third civ, then Capac will have no metal for spears which means you can found the city and delay the rush. Or rush the other civ instead. Or simply rush them both.

    4. You could have taken him out efficiently anyway.

    I see where you are coming from, I just don't think that deliberately not capturing cities when you could is going to provide enough benefits to compensate for what you are leaving out on, namely an early second capital (at least).

    EDIT: You also should require much less than the 12-15 war chariots you mentioned to take out a neighbouring civ early on. More like 6-8.
     
  7. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    You really should mention that you play warlords as first thingy.. ;)
    Cos not many others here do.
     
  8. Ramesses-Rules

    Ramesses-Rules King

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    Thanks for the good advice. I think I will go with straight WC rush. As it played out, Capac made a tactical blunder that allowed me to take his capital with WCs only. By the time I got out my first Horse Archer all he did was help in the mop up operations.

    Next question. It is 350 BC and I just finished off Capac and got a Great General. My next target is the Indian dude (Asoka). First, I have to get the economy straight and get Capac's cities up and running.

    I don't have Open Borders with Asoka yet, but I need more advice on how to attack him. I am a lousy war-monger.

    Options I am considering...

    1. Get stables in several cities and launch Horse Archers on him as soon as economy permits. I assume he has metal to make Spears, so this won't be easy.

    2. Wait longer so that I can attack with War Elephants and Cats. I also now have Copper from one of Capac's cities. Nice. I could put some Axes or Swords into the next war.

    How should I decide between these options? Also, should I use the GG to give me +2 on all Horse Archers made in Thebes, or use him as leader of a stack? I am never sure about how to use the GG. Thanks.

    I have to disagree on how many WCs are needed for an early rush. You will get bogged down with just 6-8 at Immortal level. It takes 12-15 to quickly take his two largest cities, which should be the objective. This is something I learned by experience, plus advice from TMIT.
     
  9. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Horse Archers are great but you start hitting LBs soon after 350BC with good AIs. Keep an AI on the trade screen to see if Asoka is nearing Feud. (In BTS, you can run espionage on an AI to see what they are tech and how fast)

    If Feud looks likely, Phants/Cats can take LBs. In fact, siege in general is very strong pre-BTS as they can kill.

    I always use my first GG on a super-medic. I usually use a scout for a super-medic. Next one I usually settle in HE city. You can also keep extra one in you stack and use it to heal up some units with promos. But always super-medic first.

    Ram - You really need to get BTS.

    Oh..key with mounted units like HAs is speed. Use tactics. Draw units out by threatening weaker cities. Hitting a spear in open ground is far better than in a city. And try to pillage metals first chance you get unless you expect to take the only metal city first thing and it won't stay in their culture.
     
  10. Funky

    Funky Emperor

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    I'd go for elephants and cats. I normally settle my first GG in my main unit production city to get 5xp units. If your stack consists mainly of elephants, which get 5xp anyway with stables, it may be worth considering to make a super healer instead.
     
  11. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    WC are the best non Incan UU in the game. You should be crippling 1 Civ, and whipping out another with them.
     
  12. Ramesses-Rules

    Ramesses-Rules King

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    One of my WCs already has the ++ medic promotion, so I think I will settle the GG into my best production city. Unfortunately, that city is over on the side of my empire next to Hannibal rather than Asoka. I guess that's okay, though.

    Unless Asoka is close to Feudalism, I will go at him with Horse Archers rather than Elephants/Cats. The good news is that he is the smallest civ left on the map.

    Thanks.:)
     
  13. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    In fact, horse archers are worse in Warlords. A hidden malus no longer present in BTS, which is -10% for attacking cities. Was pretty surprised the first time I saw it when replaying Warlords after a long time within BTS paradigm. Anyways, in Warlords the best are classical age sieges, then mass cavalries.

    And in Warlords, WE's were buildable without HBR! Not to mention cats only cost 40 :hammers:.
    Warlords sure was unbalanced.
     
  14. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    BTW, @Ramesses-rules, you seem to always play the Egyptians...
     
  15. Ramesses-Rules

    Ramesses-Rules King

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    Actually, I have tried Ragnar a few times. And Brennus. I always come back to my favorite, though.

    Yes, you don't need HBR for Elephants, but I can build Horse Archers right now, and it is going to take a long time to get my economy back on track after this war to the point I can tech up to Construction. Maybe somebody will trade Construction for COL, but not likely.
     

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