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Super Historical WW2 Pacific Scenario (You won't win as Japan)

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Completed Scenarios' started by Atheist, Jan 9, 2017.

  1. Atheist

    Atheist Chieftain

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    This a modification scenario of the Typhoon of Steel Scenario made by eric_A.

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/members/eric_a.36821/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/typhoon-of-steel-ww2-in-the-pacific-version-4.171616/

    I remember that scenario fondly. I prefer to play ONLY historical scenarios in all Civ games. I want there to be as little room as possible for alternative historical outcomes. If you hold a similar viewpoint then this scenario is for you!

    I modified several scenarios posted on here over the last 12 years or so to my liking but this is the only one worth posting. I spent countless weeks editing the scenario and then DEBUG testing it. I also did a lot of research on land and air division compositions and where the troops were located during the war. I'd say about 80% of Japanese Divisions are located near their historical spots.

    A Brief overview of what scenario is about. Every tweak is designed to make the scenario more historically accurate:

    1) There are several units in the original scenario that I made sure some nations can't build. Going into detail would take too much time but I will give a few examples:
    -Not too many B-17's were used in the Pacific; that's why the U.S. can't build those
    -Some of the Japanese late war improved aircraft was only experimental. Plus, only a few upgraded planes were built.
    -Japan cannot build any super battleships because only Yamato and Musashi have been built.
    -Japan cannot build ASW Destroyers because Japan sucked at anti-submarine warfare
    -No one can build Marines or Parachute Divisions. The U.S. also cannot build Infantry and armor divisions. More on that later

    2) Japanese Destroyers and Light Cruisers (same units) have no AA defenses. Similarly, the U.S. 4 stack destroyers have no AA defense either. This is to make sure that the Pearl Harbor attack is successful and to make sure that the U.S. Navy is more superior.

    3) On average, most Japanese warships are just slightly weaker than U.S. ships. For instance, the U.S. aircraft carrier has air defense of 2 instead of 1 and it has better defense and higher HP.

    4) The bulk of the British Navy did not see much action in the Pacific but there are some units that participated in the Okinawa landings and the navy would have participated in Operation Downfall. The UK aircraft carriers are very hard to sink because they had extra armor plating on their decks in WW2.

    5) Only the U.S. can create A-Bombs and they get them auto produced by the Manhattan Project wonder that only the U.S. can build. However, I have never seen the U.S. drop the A-bomb in this scenario. You'd have to play as the U.S. if you want to drop any A-Bombs

    6)This should be pretty controversial:
    The U.S. cannot build any Marine or Infantry units. That's right. I created all of the historical units that participated in the Pacific. It should be more than enough. There were only 6 Marine Divisions and they have exceedingly high HP and attack/defense values. I was thinking about breaking down the Marine Divisions into historical regiments but decided against that. Think about this: The U.S. troops did take casualties in the Pacific but no divisions have ever been completely wiped out. So every HP cell you lose is about 500 men or so. Also, Japan has no Battlefield Medicine. This is to make sure that some of the stranded Japanese units on the Philippines (after the U.S. retakes it) cannot get resupplied.

    Infantry Divisions have Regiments/Brigades. Initially, I ONLY wanted to play the scenario with divisions as historical units to reduce unit management time. However, after numerous testruns I saw that Americans run out of soldiers by the time they get to the Philipines because they'd leave units guarding other conquered locations. There is a workaround that. Marines and U.S. Infantry can now "enslave" and create defense brigades sometimes when they are victorious. These units are the ones that the U.S. leaves guarding islands more often than not while using offensive units for further conquest.

    7) Japan CANNOT advance any further into China's mainland. That's right. Japan's occupying troops are now blocked by impassable mountains. This is to decrease unit management time and prevent you from wasting your time in China when you are more interested in fighting the Yankees, right?

    However, the Chinese can pass because there are some roads leading out of Chinese territory that are built on mountain tiles. You can try to bombard those as Japan, of course, but it would take too much time. Plus you need all the planes you can get for Burma and the Solomons.

    8) In order for Japan to avoid its regiments from being annihilated by the U.S. Navy and Aerial bombardment, Japan has night infiltration units that are invisible to most U.S. units. This is to ensure that once the U.S. lands, you can conduct suicidal charges if that fits your fancy.

    9) Japanese and U.S. Infantry units are amphibious. However, you will only have a handful of Japanese Divisions that you can load onto transports - they are based in Tokyo (one will take Hong Kong and there are a couple in Thailand). About 95% of ALL of Japanese Divisions and Regiments cannot be transported and are locked onto the area they are occupying.

    I called these units "Home Defense Divisions". This is to make sure that the Japan Empire does not expand beyond its historical borders and that it defends every inch of land that it can. Also, this will save you a lot of headache from having to determine which units to load onto which transport. The first couple of turns will take you about 20 minutes to complete because of all the management. But at around 10th turn, most of your action should be confined to the Solomons and defending Burma from the incoming British 14th Army. Also, no one can produce armies. There is one more defensive Australian Army on Rabaul - that is to make sure that you cannot take it as Japan.

    Finally, I believe that Japan has only used about 18 divisions against the U.S. in the entire war.

    10) Japan cannot produce SNLF units because it only had a few such divisions during the war. Japan starts off the game with only four such units. Make the best of them. Same goes for one Parachute Brigade based near Saigon.

    11) Ocean tiles are IMPASSABLE. I create the tiles in such a way to make the U.S. take a more historic approach towards the invasion of Japan. That is, the route goes via the Solomon Islands/New Guinea/the Gilberts and so on. Coast tiles cost 2 movement. This is to make sure that the U.S. doesn't blitz from the Solomons to the Philipines in a couple of turns. Sea tiles impose no movement cost. Mountains and deserts are impassable.

    12) A Japanese infantry division/regiment stands practically no chance against a full HP'ed U.S. regiment - just like in real war. Every time you manage to destroy a U.S. regiment as Japan, you should feel a huge sense of accomplishment because the U.S. cannot replace that regiment. It can only reinforce existing once.

    This is a war of attrition and you can try to win as Japan because you CAN produce land divisions; although they are quite costly and cost 2 population. If you are playing as Japan, you want to destroy as many U.S. land units before they reach the Home Islands. Just presume that the U.S. would have sued for peace had it lost all its Marines and Infantry troops....

    13) The Commonwealth has locked PT boats with a defense of 1 throughout Indonesia. This is to make sure that most of the action takes place North of New Guinea. The amount of these PT boats ensures that Japanese Navy doesn't get bogged down in Indonesia. It's also to make sure the U.S. doesn't go South of New Guinea.

    14) I set up Pearl Harbor attack in such a way that both Navies do not meet for at least the next 12-14 turns. The Japanese Navy attacks the ships that were sunk/damaged in real life and then retreats. You'll know what I mean when you look at the BIQ file. The locked Japanese planes (that you cannot rebase) that are involved in Pearl Harbor attack are stronger than the ones you produce subsequently.

    15) I STILL cannot figure out to prevent the AI from rebasing its carrier aircraft. I honestly don't know how the AI does it. When I do a test run I cannot rebase my locked aircraft, yet the AI somehow does it anyway. I wanted to make sure that Japan keeps its planes on its aircraft carriers and that it doesn't rebase all of them to Canton or something.

    16) The reason why some islands have cities on them is to make sure that the U.S. invades them. If you just have an airfield, the U.S. will just bypass the islands. Which isn't to say that the U.S. didn't island hop in general. I guess you could make the case for Truk, but Japan needs that island for rebasing planes and for repairing ships.

    17) Japan is already prepared for Operation Downfall. The Home Islands already contain historical divisions that cannot be transported off of the island. I marked them as "wheeled" units which Japan cannot transport. Only the U.S. can because it has Invasion Fleets. Also, it is REALLY hard to destroy an Invasion Fleet because they have high HP and high defense. After all, I don't believe Japan was able to sink too many U.S. transport ships during the war. I know the U.S. sank quite a few, though.

    18) The U.S. does not build Sherman Brigades but those (along with Parachute Brigades) are produced automatically by Wonders. The U.S. does not build any offensive units. I made it so that the U.S. only builds ships and aircraft. So don't get happy when you manage to shoot down a P-38 unit - the U.S. probably has 5 more coming to replace it.

    19) Don't be put off by Japan's Gold Resources on the Islands. It's to make sure you can sustain your Home Defense Army when you've lost your colonies.

    20) Japan has no oil on the Islands. You have to extract oil from Indonesia. Once Java, Borneo, and Sumatra are retaken, you are screwed. BUT WAIT! You can build Kamikazes that don't require oil (although they cost 1 population). So defend those Indonesia Islands to the death. However, there is one oil resource in Manchuria but it would take you a while to build a road there because you can no longer spam workers.

    21) I replaced Communist China with the USSR. All they do is quietly sit and auto produce tank armies that will pulverize Japan if war is declared. The workaround is that the USSR has no contact with the allies until the U.S. approaches Vladivostok close enough. The USSR only has contact with Japan. Also, diplomats and military alliances are only enabled when Naval Aviation II is researched... I know.

    22) Sea trade is controlled by Commercial Docks that only a handful of cities/islands have. So don't expect to be building Zeros on Truk.

    23) YOU CANNOT RUSH UNITS or BUILDINGS in this scenario. Again, this is to make sure that you take great care insofar as which units you want to build. Afterall, time is against Japan in this scenario. This is also to make sure that Japan's AI does not build Battleships on Iwo Jima... This is also to make sure that if a B-29 takes out your Harbor, you REALLY feel the loss and don't just rush production.

    24) The Min/Max Research rate is 25 turns. You may want to edit that if you want. I think having the same research rate in my scenarios ensures that no nation can advance too much ahead. This research rate makes sure that the U.S. can't build advanced air units until 25 turns into the game.

    There is a LOT more to say about this scenario and I will probably keep editing this post.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So how do you win as Japan? well. I usually rush to the Solomons. Forget about India and forget about Tarawa and Kwajalein. You can't defend those islands. Plus, there is little room to maneuver there. Indonesia will fall within the first few turns - I made sure of that.

    I then build an airfield on Guadalcanal, build as many planes as possible and spread them throughout the Solomons. In this scenario, I made sure that EVERY unit you build takes time. After all, you can't just spam Infantry Divisions at a whim. Oh, and you can't just DRAFT Units. There is NO draft in the scenario. And there is no Mobilization of production because my shield cost kept getting messed up over and over again. I want to make sure that you invest into every single unit and that you feel the loss every time you Zero squadron gets shot down or your Battleship gets sunk.

    What do I do then? I stack. And stack and stack ships. What you want to do is bomb U.S. Navy just enough to make sure that a carrier is available for your BB to pulverize.

    The scenario is designed for the U.S. Navy to be 1-2 turns ahead of its Invasion Fleet. So don't count on taking out much of the Invasion fleet until you deal with the Navy first.


    I highly recommend using alternative terrain packs for the scenario. Ares De Borg's terrain pack is my favorite.

    There is little doubt that I will keep updating the scenario for myself. There is always something to tweak.

    Please let me know if you encounter any problems. Or if you think that an edit of something is appropriate.

    I recommend playing with the no raze patch to make sure the AI doesn't raze cities. I know it messes up the UI but its worth it.

    I also recommend playing without any saving/loading.
    I know that may be tough to do because we have no free will but I think playing like that is a lot more immersive in a historical scenario.









    LINK TO THE MAIN FILES

    1) https://www.mediafire.com/?5zgp8cbwq878cam

    Login is
    civilizationstrategygame@gmail.com

    password:
    civilization3

    OR

    2) https://ufile.io/9b233
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
  2. Rathvilly

    Rathvilly Emperor

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    Hello Atheist - was going to try this out - downloaded the Biq but the main files are being blocked - site/files are reported as unsafe.
     
  3. Atheist

    Atheist Chieftain

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    I just changed the link to mega.nz
    See if that works.

    The files should be safe. It's just the main files that I winrared from my PC.
     
  4. Rathvilly

    Rathvilly Emperor

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    No - need login /password details ...
     
  5. Atheist

    Atheist Chieftain

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  6. Rathvilly

    Rathvilly Emperor

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    Hi Atheist - that worked fine. I'll study your instructions - is there any level you recommend playing on ? I usually play around Emperor depending on the scenario, but you may have it balanced for a different level ...
     
  7. Atheist

    Atheist Chieftain

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    I just go with Warlord
     
  8. eric_A

    eric_A Deity

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    Atheist; Got your message, I have no problem with you modifying my old scenario.
    I will give your version a test run.
     
  9. eric_A

    eric_A Deity

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    I played a few turns as the US here are some points:
    Dominion Parliament - This Improvement should be unbuildable. This was one of my mistakes from the original TOS scenario. In my later scenarios I created a non- era tech called "Unbuildable" which no civs had at start for these kind of improvements. There should be 1 parliament in Australia, New Zealand and Canada at start.

    Impassable ocean tiles - I like the idea of forcing historical invasion routes, but I think you took the concept too far.
    It makes submarines too easy to find. It makes some historical operations such as the Doolittle raid and the Aleutian campaign
    nearly impossible. Of course the AI will not invade small Islands with no cities on them such as Midway, but If I was playing Japan
    I'd like to be able to try. If you made the ocean tiles have a high movement point number but have all naval units except transports and invasion fleets ignore the movement cost I think it would work be better.

    I would reduce the number of invasion fleets at start, maybe by half, but double the number of units they can carry to make the game move along faster.
     
  10. Rathvilly

    Rathvilly Emperor

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    Hello Atheist – had a go as Japan. Stuck with Emperor as I didn’t think it would make a difference. A few issues – techs take 25 turns each – so was only able to research a couple and stopped playing end of 1945. Was still just ahead on points but I notice you’ve got the default 540 turns set. A lot of the one tile islands are population 1 with no culture. These are automatically razed no-raze patch or not (not sure if this was intentional on your part). Managed to stop the British in Burma but the US is pretty much unstoppable – did manage to sink a troopship with the Yamato around Okinawa – was pretty proud of that ! Really like the way you guided the Ai (US) across the pacific – pretty cool – though once passed the Solomon’s they did veer off course a bit to Indo-China, Taiwan etc. At game end I still held most of mainland China and Japan – though if I’d kept going that would’ve changed – they did have a couple of cracks at me, and I didn’t see what happened, but you must have a unit in Japan that triggered a golden age for Japan (was having a break while the US was bombing me to smithereens …).
     
  11. Atheist

    Atheist Chieftain

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    @Rathvilly

    Hmm, I never had a single city razed. The no-raze patch works like a charm for me. That is so odd. Did you launch the game via the regular shortcut or via the no-raze patch shortcut? If it's the former, the no-raze patch won't work for you.

    I am still not sure if its best to have 20-25 turns for techs. Feel free to modify that. I didn't want Japan to be able to build advanced aircraft until the war is pretty much lost.

    Yeah, I didn't bother with default 540 turns because it's a conquest victory scenario. I guess the game can take around 100 turns if you do really well as Japan. I could turn that down.

    Alright:
    1) I will get rid of the golden age trigger
    2) I will strengthen the British Burma Army
    3) The US does eventually get to Indochina one way or another. I tried my best to dissuade it with locked PT boats and lack of victory points there. If you have any suggestions as to how to make sure the US doesn't go there, let me know.
    4) Japan did hold most of the occupied China until the end of the war even though the Chinese went on the offensive at the end. I could give their infantry more defensive value and hit points because they are able to leave Chinese territory over the impassable mountains, whereas Japan is stuck with the defense.
    5) I am considering making all Japan Defense Unite weaker to ensure you can't dislodge Americans when they are invading Hiroshima.
     
  12. Atheist

    Atheist Chieftain

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    @eric A
    Gotcha.
    I will get rid of the Parliament building altogether.

    Also, I haven't tested the game as much for the U.S. It is REALLY hard to balance the scenario for both Japan and the U.S.

    I think I'll need a separate BIQ file for the U.S. because it's just TOO easy to win as the U.S. in this scenario.
    For more challenge, I will probably make sure their Navy isn't too overpowered and I'll probably reduce naval aircraft carrying capacity from 10 to 5 or something.

    Yes, I had to sacrifice the Aleutian campaign altogether. I mean, I guess could have Japan invade one of the islands there.
    As for the DoLittle Raid, I doubt I'd be able to have the US AI divert its naval carriers to bomb Japan only once and retreat. I've watched the AI behavior for a long time and I doubt that would be productive.

    If I get rid of the impassable Ocean Tiles, you'll have the U.S. invade Iwo Jima by the 10th turn. Hmm, I have to see if I can make the subs be able to traverse Ocean Tiles if I check off "treat all terrain as roads" line.

    As for your Invasion Fleets point. Yes, I have tested that. Initially, Invasion Fleets carried 10 troops. But when I realized that I was able to sink a couple as Japan I got terrified - that's at most 20 U.S. divisions that get sunk - that didn't happen.

    So I lessened troop carrying capacity to 5 - same outcome.

    Finally, I lessened troop capacity to 3 and made invasion fleet stronger. That way, when you play as Japan you will at most be able to sink 2-3 Invasion fleets if you are lucky (and expose your fleet in the process which will get pulverized by the U.S. navy the next turn anyway).

    When I make a U.S. BIQ file I will increase invasion fleet troop capacity back to 10.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
  13. eric_A

    eric_A Deity

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    "If I get rid of the impassable Ocean Tiles, you'll have the U.S. invade Iwo Jima by the 10th turn. Hmm, I have to see if I can make the subs be able to traverse Ocean Tiles if I check off "treat all terrain as roads" line."

    No, try this:
    a. Set the movement cost of ocean to a high number, say 15 for example.

    b. Make submarines and all combat ships (but not transports or invasion fleets) ignore cost of ocean.

    Now subs, carriers, destroyers, etc. can roam freely but ships carrying troops will have to follow the "sea lanes".
     
  14. Darth Kaiser

    Darth Kaiser Chieftain

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    Hi Atheist - My first post on here, lol. I downloaded and installed successfully, except for some of the concerns raised earlier. Have these been changed yet? Not sure if I have the latest version (yes, first turn auto builds were set on making those damn parliaments, and Japs destroyed two cities - didn't run game from no raze patch shortcut. Will try it in future, or just raise pops to 2, or something - smallish matter).

    Anyway initial technical issues aside, I just wanted to say that I think these pacific scenarios are better served by starting at the battle of midway than the Pearl Harbour attack. The AI just cant recreate the event satisfactorily. I mean you cant see the damage the ships incur, AND those that get damaged are quickly restored back to life within a turn or two. Not exactly the crippling blow the Japanese were willing to risk awaking the sleeping giant for!!

    Anyway, be that as it may, If there is a way to pull it off properly (but I have my doubts), then I feel quite strongly that Japan should be set up for the attack, BUT WITHOUT A STATE OF WAR existing between the countries. Then you have the tough choice faced by the Japanese as to whether to go ahead with the plan or not. Good stuff!!! I'm not sure what choice the AI would make. Probably wimp out and head for home if the US is as strong as you've made them at the outset of your scenario.

    That prompts my second point: that the US is too strong at the outset. I mean, would you have evolved the Japanese plan knowing that US has a forceful invasion fleet locked and loaded to go? I think not. It just feels like the PH attack is a pesky detail in light of the way you have set up your scenario. Don't get me wrong, though, I like your thinking and I support the idea of limitations on troops, equipment and infrastructure availability, as well as no quick builds. Its just that you're set up for the turnaround in the Pacific, not the outset (or so I believe).

    Starting at Midway is a much more exciting beginning to a scenario, as you have to pull off something special as the US; and as Japan, you have the ability to change the original history (potentially) by winning the battle. After all, THIS IS WHAT WE LIVE FOR!!!! And anyway, everybody knows that Pearl Harbour was the reason the US and Japan are in the existing state of war. Perhaps an intro cut scene or background reference would serve as an adequate reminder of that day in infamy. Or else the decision still has to be made by Japan and then the sort of treacherous nature of the event would hit home more (as discussed earlier).

    Anyway, those are my initial thoughts, and I look forward to trying out the scenario further. Thanks to all those creators and modders out there who spend their time bringing (or attempting to bring) history back to life (or in many cases, alter it). You have my undying respect. Rock on, Atheist!!
     
  15. eric_A

    eric_A Deity

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    DK writes:
    "Anyway initial technical issues aside, I just wanted to say that I think these pacific scenarios are better served by starting at the battle of midway than the Pearl Harbour attack. The AI just cant recreate the event satisfactorily. I mean you cant see the damage the ships incur, AND those that get damaged are quickly restored back to life within a turn or two. Not exactly the crippling blow the Japanese were willing to risk awaking the sleeping giant for!!"

    This is true up to a point, but since there is no commercial dock in Pearl, and buildings can't be rushed, the old battleships have to return to the states to be "modernized". If you reduce the defence strength a bit it will make the Japanese AI more eager to bomb them, also make them slower than the invasion fleets so they are pretty much useless without the upgrade. Also get rid of the USS Utah since that ship was a training ship in 1941 and had her main guns removed.

    BTW, finished my game as the USA, Tokyo fell in Jan. 1945. Not sure why you have the game going on until 1965?
     
  16. Darth Kaiser

    Darth Kaiser Chieftain

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    Yay, my first response - thanks eric. Hey I thought you Canadians were such peace-lovin folk? Wahaa. Ok I get your point about the after effects of PH on this scenario. And I think Atheist has done a good job in trying to make it work. Its probably just an asthetic, or 'feel'' thing in that I think the scenario was developed largely to be played as Japan and the setup of the US is largely designed to get that damned AI to behave as historically as possible (humans tend to comply even less, lol). Perhaps I just feel that a Pacific scenario with Midway as the starting point will be more exciting, or perhaps just work better than Pearl (from the US side, that is).

    I also found the Japanese carriers just standing there without escorts (which I detected heading back past midway) after the attack, and gave them a bit of what for. Were they meant to be that discoverable? Or were they so just so confidant in the knowledge of an unnavigable stretch of water between themselves and Pearl? Perhaps the pilots were doing a spot of sight-seeing before heading back ... (hehe)
     
  17. Atheist

    Atheist Chieftain

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    Thanks for your responses and thoughts, everyone!
    Thanks, Darth!
    I didn't get a chance to alter the scenario yet - been swamped with school.
    I will update you all once I make some tweaks.
     
  18. Serutan

    Serutan Eatibus Anythingibus

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    I wouldn't call it controversial, but I would call it grossly ahistorical given that 3 Marine divisions represent more men than were
    in the entire Corps in 1941 (~60,000 vs. ~54000). Similarly for US Army divisions.

    It's called "AI cheating". ;) Of which Civ 3 has more than a little.
     
  19. eric_A

    eric_A Deity

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    "15) I STILL cannot figure out to prevent the AI from rebasing its carrier aircraft. I honestly don't know how the AI does it. When I do a test run I cannot rebase my locked aircraft, yet the AI somehow does it anyway. I wanted to make sure that Japan keeps its planes on its aircraft carriers and that it doesn't rebase all of them to Canton or something."

    I was able to rebase my locked aircraft by using the "go to city" button.
     
  20. Ares de Borg

    Ares de Borg Norman Knight

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    Very interesting! Also, thank you for using my terrain pack (although you might want to check out the latest version). If you are interested in custom units, check out Delta's ships and Imperator's WW2 Japan pack.
     

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