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Superheroes!

Discussion in 'Arts & Entertainment' started by EgonSpengler, Mar 10, 2015.

  1. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Name a single superhero that displays substantial respect for laws. Vigilantes, by definition lawbreakers.
     
  2. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    Most of them don't go around stealing jewels....
     
  3. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    That's the kleptomaniac part. Let's not get intolerant about a minor mental illness.
     
  4. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    I don't think she's klepto. She's not stealing compulsively. She's doing so as a career. It's her job. She's more PTSD from a traumatic childhood than than a kleptomaniac.
     
  5. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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  6. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    Don't make Catwoman a hero at all. Just make her a thief. In movies like Oceans Eleven and Thomas Crown Affair, we can sympathize with the thieves, as they come up with super-clever ways of circumventing all the security around their object of thievery.
     
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  7. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Warlord

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    If you're looking for a well-written, female anti-hero, I recommend Keri Russell's Elizabeth Jennings in The Americans. There are even some heist/break-in scenes that you almost lift straight into a Catwoman story.

    Right, Catwoman doesn't have to be an anti-heroine at all, she'd be a great choice for the "outlaw hero" too - Robin Hood, Zorro, Han Solo.

    Thinking about anti-heroes in the shower this morning, I was thinking about Ocean's Eleven too, but it's been so long since I've seen it, I can't remember if they're anti-heroes or outlaw heroes. Wasn't Andy Garcia's character a scumbag?

    I was also thinking about Geena Davis in The Long Kiss Goodnight. She wasn't an anti-hero, but she was a multifaceted character, which (a) is just a more interesting character, whatever their archetype and (b) is a good way to 'sell' an anti-heroine. You can't have an anti-heroine who's just an a-hole, imho, because the reader or viewer needs to either like or identify with the protagonist (and also relate with their desire to defeat the antagonist, if there is one). If the reader or viewer simply doesn't like the protagonist, they may quit reading or watching.

    Massive spoilers for a 23-year-old movie in 3... 2... 1...

    At the beginning of The Long Kiss Goodnight, amnesiac Samantha is a one-dimensional character, but with an intriguing wrinkle, the amnesia. Other than her memory problems, Samantha is almost a parody of the upper-middle-class American suburban wife and mom. I actually think casting Davis for the role was a genius move, in part because Samantha is the kind of character she played. It was deliberate typecasting, but with a wink, right before she jams her foot down on the gas and swerves off the road. Samantha gets her memory back on the water wheel, and for a while, she fully embraces being Charley Baltimore and abandons Samantha and her family. But she can't, entirely, because she's still Samantha and Charley. By the end of the movie, she appears to have chosen to go back to being Samantha, and there's a "...and they lived happily ever after" epilogue. But we know she hasn't suffered amnesia again, and we're supposed to think everything's just hunky-dory? Like she's packed Charley away in a box in the attic? I always wanted to see a sequel, in part because I think the juxtaposition of Samantha and Charley, and how Samantha incorporates and reconciles Charley into her life, would be an interesting story - and of course, this being an action movie, eventually the knives would come out (and the guns, explosives, and recklessly-handled heavy machinery) and Samantha would have to let Charley off the leash and use some foul language.

    Catwoman's not a multiple-personality and doesn't have amnesia, but I bet a clever writer could envision a scenario where she has to - or better yet, wants to - play two roles, and be two people.
     
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  8. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Every costumed hero plays two roles and effectively is two people.
     
  9. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Warlord

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    Yes, but I think we're talking specifically about Catwoman being a criminal. I wouldn't count a disguise as the person actually being two people. While Batman and Superman do try to "be two people", I get the sense that Catwoman's outfit is merely a disguise. Selina Kyle in the catsuit and Selina Kyle in regular clothes are still both Selina Kyle. (Incidentally, one of the notable and interesting differences between Batman and Superman is in their secret identities. For Superman, Clark Kent is who he really is and Superman is the disguise he puts on. For Batman, it's the opposite, Batman is who he really is, and Bruce Wayne is the fake identity.)
     
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  10. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Supes might like to believe that he is "really" Clark Kent, but he's not. And yes, Selina Kyle in the Catsuit is still Selena Kyle, because like all villains her identity isn't a secret. I think in many ways that's the defining quality of a villain. They've run afoul of the law, usually through the intervention of some other costumed character that is hardly any more law abiding than they are, and as a result they have lost all access to a "normal life." If Supes were outed as Clark Kent his only recourse would be to stop pretending he is Clark Kent and become full time Superman, brooding costumed monster living in fortress of solitude.
     
  11. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Warlord

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    I thought Frank Quitely on All-Star Superman did the best job of making Superman's seemingly-ridiculous "secret identity" actually seem plausible also punctured the notion that Clark is the real guy and Superman is the masquerade. The artist drew Clark Kent as more than just "Superman, but with glasses" - with an exaggerated slouch, clothes that were too big for him, generally unkempt, maybe a little bit of a belly. It portrayed him as trying to look, or not look, a certain way, so Clark was clearly the deceptive affectation.

     
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  12. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    I remember an issue of Superman where the claim was made that while disguised as Clark Supes continuously exhaled his super breath out his nostrils to form a cushion of air so that his immense mass wouldn't crush everything he stepped on. Long about then was when I pretty much gave up on DC Comics in general, and Superman in particular.
     
  13. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    There was one series of Wonder Woman comics that addressed that. WW was meeting Sups and Bats for the first time. She uses her golden lasso to force understanding and truth between them. Sups introduces himself as "Clark Kent. Kal EL." Bats introduces himself as "Batman." Sups says "Really? Your name is Batman?"

    Catwoman's secret identity is handled differently in different versions. In some, she seems pretty widely known as Selina. In others, not so much, and Selina has a civilian identity as a socialite of unknown origin. But Catwoman is never handled as two different people from Selina. It's just her working clothes, and it's a disguise rather than an identity.
     
  14. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    I'm into season three of Daredevil, and I'm still ambivalent. But I'm still watching, so from the producer's point of view ambivalent is good enough. I am quite taken with this iteration of The Punisher though, so I will definitely be watching that next.
     
  15. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Warlord

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    It sounds like The New Mutants may never see the light of day. Might not be a bad thing, although I am curious to see it, because that was one of the comics I read back in the day. It's hard to tell whether the movie is really that much of a trainwreck or Disney is just trying to bury everything that Fox had in the pipe. Some folks are saying that Disney dragged their feet in promoting the Dark Phoenix movie, but I think it also got poor reviews. I'm a pretty cheap date for superhero stuff, but the X-Men franchise had already lost me before Disney bought Fox. I was at the front of the line on opening night for X-Men in 2000, but I haven't seen Age of Apocalypse, and I didn't see Deadpool until people assured me that it was actually good.

    Elsewhere, I read an interview with Jeph Loeb, who noted that Marvel Television (Agents of SHIELD; Runaways; Cloak & Dagger; Legion; Agent Carter) is a separate arm from the movie side run by Kevin Feige. The movie side is producing the currently-announced Disney+ series (Loki; WandaVision; Falcon & Winter Soldier) but Marvel Television could also put shows on Disney+. Loeb also mentioned that Ghost Rider and Helstrom will be part of a string of shows akin to Netflix's The Defenders shows, but with a supernatural theme instead of the street-level vigilante theme. He didn't mention which other characters could fit into that theme, but fans of Marvel Comics can surely name some names.

    Also, I forgot that Marvel Television is developing a Tigra & Dazzler animated series, which most likely takes Dazzler off the table for the new live-action show.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  16. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Warlord

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    Rewatching Endgame.

    "Have either of you guys ever studied quantum physics?"
    "Only to make conversation."

    ---

    "It's a baby."
    "It's Scott."
    "As a baby."
    "He'll grow."

    :lol:
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
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  17. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Warlord

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    Okay, Natasha and Clint definitely used to be more than friends. I wasn't sure before Endgame.

    ---

    My MCU movie rankings. I think. The first two are in a dead heat, really, but I made myself choose.
    1. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
    2. Thor: Ragnarok
    3. Iron Man
    4. Spider-Man: Homecoming
    5. Captain America: The First Avenger
    6. Guardians of the Galaxy
    7. Captain America: Civil War
    8. Avengers: Infinity War
    9. Avengers: Endgame
    10. Black Panther
    11. Ant-Man and The Wasp
    12. The Avengers
    13. Iron Man 3
    14. Ant-Man
    15. Spider-Man: Far From Home
    16. Avengers: Age of Ultron
    17. Thor
    18. Guardians of the Galaxy, vol. 2
    19. Iron Man 2
    20. Doctor Strange
    21. Captain Marvel
    22. Thor: The Dark World
     
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  18. Synsensa

    Synsensa Warlord Retired Moderator

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    Oh, dang. Hmm.

    1. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
    2. Thor: Ragnarok
    3. Spider-Man: Far From Home
    4. Captain America: The First Avenger
    5. Captain America: Civil War
    6. Spider-Man: Homecoming
    7. Avengers: Infinity War
    8. Captain Marvel
    9. Avengers: Endgame
    10. Iron Man
    11. The Avengers
    12. Black Panther
    13. Avengers: Age of Ultron
    14. Guardians of the Galaxy
    15. Guardians of the Galaxy, vol. 2
    16. Doctor Strange
    17. Ant-Man
    18. Ant-Man and The Wasp
    19. Thor
    20. Iron Man 3
    21. Thor: The Dark World
    22. Iron Man 2
     
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  19. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    I've seen Endgame, and I still don't think so. Clint is too happily married, and obviously has been since before he joined SHIELD since his secret home safe house was set up when he joined. And his wife likes Nat. A lot. That's not how that works.
     
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  20. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Warlord

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    I think these are my pick for "most underrated Marvel movie(s)." I kind of wanted to put them into my Top 10, but couldn't quite do it. I'm still thinking about it, though. It's remarkable to me that there aren't any MCU movies that I genuinely disliked. The bottom 4 on my list are still in the "meh, s'okay" category. If a friend wanted to watch one of them again, I wouldn't mind.

    That's true, I can't remember if it was ever said when they met. I get the feeling the incident in Budapest, whatever it was, was a mission they were on together and not necessarily when they met, but it's been kept deliberately vague. We're only supposed to know that it cemented their friendship. I think we know that Natasha was recruited out of her previous career. I don't think we know what Clint was doing before SHIELD, but I get the impression he wasn't an academy graduate or a young recruit, like Fitz-Simmons or Daisy Johnson. So it's possible they could have met before joining SHIELD, but I don't know if we know for sure.
     

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