Superslug Vs Sid

superslug

Still hatin' on Khan
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On my first map roll, I had a river and cow for a 4-turn pump. Upriver was a wheat for a great second city.
I played this first-ever Sid attempt for 14 minutes before discovering I shared my island with the Arabs and went screaming out of the room in terror.
Hope to make it a half an hour on my next run.
 
It became very quickly apparent to me that I'm not ready for Sid, even if it's still a matter of psychological intimidation. Civ is very much a brain game.
I don't really have any Deity games on the HOF tables, so I'm playing one now as a step in the direction of Sid. I've always hated archipelago games, but I know it's crucial to slowing down the AI on Sid. My current Deity game is an archipelago, and I'm certainly noticing how it's stunted AI development.
 
I never would have figured I'd get an SGL on Deity, playing the Iroquois no less. Thank you Metallurgy!
 
Decided to take a break from Sid attempts and tried a huge milk run on Regent. Thought for a while the score would place in top 10, but was falling just short. As luck would have it, I totally forgot about 160K culture and triggered that as a win. That one did make a table.
 
Don't have nearly as much free time as when this game first came out, but I'm slowly working on a 20K Deity game that seems promising. Even if I'm not a Sid-level player yet, it feels great being able to compete on Deity after all these years.
 
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It's too early to say if this will become my only Deity game in the HOF, but it sure feels good to take a Mongol city on a high difficulty.

Trying for a huge 20K. Map is set for archipelago with SirPleb's opponent set. Was able to start off with the Colossus, Mausoleum, and GLib in the AA. Middle Ages were a bit quiet, but I snagged Shakespeare's Theater and built the FP after moving my palace. Golden age is early Industrial, and I'm pretty sure I can ride the cascades to ToE and Hoover.

The Inca capital is the only city with more culture than mine, but I'm generating more per turn.
 
@superslug, I do think I've cracked the Sid code to at least get a victory, and I think you can do it too. I may write it up, but it really just involves drilling every possible exploit as deep as it goes.

(1) Archipelago 80% water

(a) This limits the expansion power of Sid civs, which is a top advantage in addition to production discounts. They can only expand to the water's edge, and in a 60% archipelago, so they aren't oversized when you take them on.
(b) Many of the Sid civs will drown themselves in units and unit support costs when they can't expand anymore or war, eliminating them from being tech problems.
(c) If you are a seafaring civ, and choose all non-seafaring / non-commercial civs, you get a monopoly on Alphabet.
(d) You also get 3 move carraghs, and since AI don't "suicide" them to contact other ones, you might be able to tech trade as well since they won't be in contact for a while.
(e) You just need to be alone on your home island. If there is another civ, re-start.

(2) Pillage trade route.
(a) Free techs, enough said. Spend nothing on techs, build up a huge war chest (you will need it to rush Armies from a Military Academy for the conquest phase). Please do as @Spoonwood says and re-acquire the lux every turn, in order to eliminate the chance that you could lose the pillage trade turn for turn. On archipelago - it's super easy to do this. Just forgo harbors in all but one or two towns you can cut a single road to. Leave 6 workers and 2 warriors on that road. If you can get this going with multiple civs, you get everyone's tech the turn it happens and can trade to the other civs and either make them broke, taking them out of the tech game, or leave them behind.

(b) Use pillage trade route on military alliances. This can break profitable trading relationships with AI, slow down their teching as they over-build units, or even take out rivals. Also, it keeps the military ally (ex ally after you pillage) favorably disposed towards you, since you are at war with the same enemy.

(3) Great Library. You can build it on Sid by doing Writing - Literature and pre-building as soon as you possibly can. Zero tech costs and the ability to generate money from tech arbitrage.

(4) Armies. The fact that Civ 3 AI won't attack healed armies makes you invulnerable once you have a Military Academy.
(a) @Spoonwood has a great plan for generating MGLs - leave your capital undefended to encourage invasions, and then enough catapults to redline any attackers and vet units become elite become MGLs.
(b) The @Sir Pleb funnel of deception is a way to make the wars manageable. Just ignore their armies in the field and take their cities while their troops shuffle about. No cities means no more units. Once you get the Funnel of Deception working, they really do leave very few units in cities. I found 3-5 to be pretty consistent. That means you don't even need a huge artillery stack or offensive force. If you have Cavalry Armies and railroads, it is possible even to skip artillery against rifleman-only opponents and just take out their cities in rapid succession. I took out the 4 northern Egyptian cities in one turn without a single artillery shot. I did investigate those cities to confirm that they were lightly defended.
 
Just forgo harbors in all but one or two towns you can cut a single road to.

Alternatively, just don't have a harbor in your capital and only ever build one road from your capital. Or pillage down to one road adjacent to your capital. Then you can have harbors in other cities.

Or have roads in adjacent tiles to your capital, but not at the next ring of tiles.
 
Alternatively, just don't have a harbor in your capital and only ever build one road from your capital. Or pillage down to one road adjacent to your capital. Then you can have harbors in other cities.

Or have roads in adjacent tiles to your capital, but not at the next ring of tiles.
I've used all of those methods but the easiest and least disruptive to me is the single harbor (or, if there is a chokepoint, multiple harbors beyond the chokepoint) method. Pillaging too much around your capital obviously hurts you on tiles that are otherwise going to be uncorrupted. In my Deity game, I wound up have 3 different points I had to pillage, which was a real pain (and took up a lot of workers).
 
I've used all of those methods but the easiest and least disruptive to me is the single harbor (or, if there is a chokepoint, multiple harbors beyond the chokepoint) method. Pillaging too much around your capital obviously hurts you on tiles that are otherwise going to be uncorrupted. In my Deity game, I wound up have 3 different points I had to pillage, which was a real pain (and took up a lot of workers).

It sounds like you would build roads out from your capital and then pillage them later. After a while I just started only building one road from my capital. Of course though, that meant that settlers would found cities slightly slower though.

For the non-capital harbor city plan:

1. It works out better during the expansion phase of the game, since you have roads from your capital.

2. Not having harbors in other cities though probably implies less citizens working coastal and sea squares. So, that could be less total commerce than using the capital.

3. Most cities in your empire can only produce regular ships instead of veterans.

But even with the drawbacks, the trade route going through a harbor city does sound like it can end up easier to use, since getting settlers and workers out from the capital ends up simpler and getting settlers and workers out early makes for the core of the early game.

Anyways, good luck to slug with his Deity 20k game!
 
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This is all very useful advice. I'll certainly take some time to study a handful of strategies and techniques I haven't done before.

Current game looks good on Deity, but I might want another Deity win in the bag before I move up.

I'll also be dropping down to lower levels for alternating games just to enjoy far more casual Civ. @Spoonwood's list of empty slots motivated me to fill a Cheiftain position, and it was refreshing to kind of screw around without having to prove anything.
 
This is all very useful advice. I'll certainly take some time to study a handful of strategies and techniques I haven't done before.

Current game looks good on Deity, but I might want another Deity win in the bag before I move up.

I'll also be dropping down to lower levels for alternating games just to enjoy far more casual Civ. @Spoonwood's list of empty slots motivated me to fill a Cheiftain position, and it was refreshing to kind of screw around without having to prove anything.

Honestly, superslug, my current game is basically something I was only toying around with and I 100% assumed I would have to dump because Sid would be too hard for whatever reason. There have been 3 points at which I said "oh, I think I'm screwed here, let me save it just in case I need to dump this game and play around from this point with a different strategy for my next attempt." Each time I just pushed forward and it turned out OK. When Japan went to war with me by surprise and took a few towns I was pretty much convinced I was screwed but it really is true that the Sid AI is just the same dumb Civ 3 AI with production bonuses.

The whole Sir Pleb fake funnel thing is an eye opener - I essentially ignored the huge Sid hordes of Egyptians as they danced around. They were irrelevant. Egypt could have had 10,000 riflemen and knights, it wouldn't have made a difference if they kept leaving 3-4 riflemen in their cities. If you have Armies and a landing spot, it really just is a matter of going through the mechanics. Because you are on an archipelago, it becomes almost impossible for them to throw those hordes against you - the sea is the ultimate bottleneck. Yes, they unload a galleon every once in a while but it's not even a nuisance.

If you are winning at Deity, you can win at Sid, because you've already managed the basics of empire growth & optimization and can trade from behind on tech, etc. I'm the type of guy that can only win with a pretty tight plan (this is why I pester @Spoonwood for details like his early army makeup and build sequences), and the plan above is enough. Vikings are good because an early 6 attack unit gives you an advantage, too, as well as cheap barracks and harbors when you build them.

I think the TRUE leap is Sid Pangaea. There isn't a sea to block them from invading and you just need to play extremely well at the early game to not get destroyed. @SuedecivIII has a video playing Sid on Pangaea with the Iroquois that is pretty good to watch for early game Sid Pangaea dynamics and it is so, so hard to be that good. In my mind, I'd say it's probably a bigger leap from Sid archipelago to Sid Pangaea than it is from Monarch to Demigod.
 
I'm the type of guy that can only win with a pretty tight plan (this is why I pester @Spoonwood for details like his early army makeup and build sequences)

I feel inclined to point to links from games that I've played before in the Hall of Fame. Like the France game I played last spring. But, it seems I focused on telling a story there rather detailing moves and such.

AnthonyIII and I played a succession game a Sid pangea succession game over a decade ago.

We ended up in a corner with Sumeria as our neighbor. AnthonyIII ended up playing it out to the end by his own self...

I wanted to start my GA on this war, so I parked 4 riders outside of Kisurra, actually the only riders I used in the whole game as I delayed this war until Military Tradition and upgraded all my riders. I also had parked stacks of 3 cannons and 7-8 cavs outside their 5 border cities. I took those on the same turn. As also described above I did lure the Sumerians into war with Korea who was far away. When their units where returning home they got slaughtered by the Russians and The Byzantines who I had signed in on the war. I slowly worked my way through their territory.

I'm of the opinion that a succession game would be more beneficial than just seeing my moves. But, I also don't want to distract from any current games such that they fade into the background at least. Also, @templar_x might be a better coach or leader for a Sid succession game than me.

I do wonder if Superslug might have an issue with some AIs potentially launching on his map before he can get to a 20k victory. I guess he'll keep the forums posted on that in the future.
 
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The Inca are ahead of me in nearly every respect, but I have contingency plans for them.

I share a continent with the Zulu, Arabs, Egypt, and Mongols, but I've got the first three fighting the Mongols together. There are six sources of coal on my continent, but none in my borders.

I'm sure Sid is possible, but this is actually the first time I've felt competent on Deity, so I wanna finish it out. I'm planning on a few more Deity games to get my Quartermaster rating up.
 
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I got every AI on my continent to join me in a campaign to exterminate the Mongols completely, but it looks like Genghis will be hanging around after all. Going to war with him was still worth it, because some of the territory I took from him had coal that my own initial expansion territory didn't cover.

The shorter wonder cascades on Deity have made it easier to grab a few with Palace prebuilds. I got Universal Suffrage and Theory of Evolution. My 20K city is now the most-cultured city in the world, and I'm currently on pace for a roughly 1995AD finish. That will shift slight sooner into the future, but not nearly enough to beat anyone out on the table.

#5 of anything Deity is just fine by me.

I've got ~232 turns of grinding to hang around and prevent the AI from winning while my city runs the clock, and I'm going to knock some heads while I'm at it just on the off chance that MGLs happen.

I'm going to let the AI build Hoover as I focus on Intelligence Agency and then a UN prebuild. After that, I can still do Battlefield Medicine, Wall Street, and all the Modern Age wonders. However, my only real culture boost may be when Shakespeare's hits 1000 years and doubles.
 
I keep forgetting about marines because I never build them. Thanks.
 
I keep forgetting about marines because I never build them. Thanks.
You do need a non-required tech (Amphibious War) to build them, so I never build them as well. If I do build them it's almost exactly for these purposes of taking out a single tile island city at the end of the game.
 
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Not a bad position for halfway through the game. The Zulu are my direct neighbors and a future war, to be sure. They just finished Hoover Dam, and I've got a palace prebuild going for the UN with no AI building wonders. No one's winning Diplo.
 
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