Supply and Demand Change with Worker Allocation

[Prof. Garfield]

When playing GOTM 113 (I don't think anything I say in this thread will spoil the game for anyone) I noticed that one of my cities changed supply and demand when I moved a worker around. Attached are screenshots of that city in different states on the same turn; I was able to move back and forth between these 2 states as often as I liked.

I've run into it again, and I'm pretty sure it is triggered when shield production is exactly equal to support requirements.

I will admit to knowing little about the allocation of supply and demand other than that others know a lot about how it works and it relies (at least in part) on nearby terrain and city size. Is this phenomenon well known? If so, can someone please provide a link describing it.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

My knowledge of this subject is limited to what is in Early Landing Guide and based on that this has not been observed before.

 

[Peaster]

I have not seen it either, not in forums and not in my games [but I am hardly an expert on this kind of thing]. Seems very interesting and maybe another great Civ2 exploit. I'm guessing this does not always work when shields in = shields out, and that it may be linked to the solo cycle somehow. Does it ever work two turns in a row in the same city ?

 

[Magic_gorter]

Never heard of it before. Might be interesting if this is working indeed.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Does it ever work two turns in a row in the same city ?

Based upon the very large sample space of 2 cities, it never works in the same city two turns in a row. Once I'm finished the GOTM, I may go back and take a closer look at the game and see if I can find more of these cities.

One characteristic I noticed was that when the cities in question had "surplus production" they demanded Uranium, and when they didn't have extra production, Uranium was not in the demand list.

 

[Peaster]

Based upon the very large sample space of 2 cities, it never works in the same city two turns in a row.

Wild guess = maybe it only happens when the city is starting a new solo-cycle, which occurs every 16 turns. That would explain why it doesn't work twice in a row. Also, why most of us have never noticed it. And, I've had the feeling for a long time that supply and demand are affected not only by terrain [solo's std explanation], but by the placement of workers at the start of a new cycle. But I am not patient enough test this kind of hypothesis carefully. So, for now, this is just a wild idea.

 

[jonburke]

For the MGE I use, it does happen when starting a new solo-cycle. You can make one of two lists appear. Once that turn is over, the selection remains until the next cycle. Since no one else previously mentioned this, I'm guessing that this phenomenon only arises in certain versions.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

I see you have built Superhighways before Bank. They are very costly to build, but it's better to build them before a bank anyway? Maybe superhighways are more profitable than a bank in a huge city.

One characteristic I noticed was that when the cities in question had "surplus production" they demanded Uranium, and when they didn't have extra production, Uranium was not in the demand list.

I think Uranium is demanded in every city all the time, at least after the nuclear age has begun. (Except for the special circumstances you witnessed.)
So I have been wondering what the heck are the digital citizens up to, demanding a radiactive metal all the time in every city...

But I have never seen any city offering uranium. I would guess mountain regions might have uranium? That's where uranium is found in the real world I think. But mountains can be under grassland and plains too, but I don't know how realistic they made the game. I wouldn't be surprised if it's completely random.

I would like to see documentation on what sort of terrain the different commodities comes from. I have not come across any documentation so far.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

This is the Apolyton thread that talks about supply and demand calculations:

http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/67754-How-Supply-and-Demand-Lists-Are-Determined

 

[CurtSibling]

I see you have built Superhighways before Bank. They are very costly to build, but it's better to build them before a bank anyway? Maybe superhighways are more profitable than a bank in a huge city.

Always build all economy improvements in all medium (and larger) cities, when the strategic situation allows.

Obviously, "superhighways" are best in cities with large road coverage, don't bother in smaller, non-trade cities.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I see you have built Superhighways before Bank. They are very costly to build, but it's better to build them before a bank anyway? Maybe superhighways are more profitable than a bank in a huge city.

I didn't notice this part before (or I was in a hurry and just posted the link and forgot to come back).

Banks increase your tax and luxury output by 50% counting from your base output (that is, if you have a market place already, you will only see approximately 33% more gold/luxuries).

Superhighways increase the base trade of each roaded tile by 50% (rounded down), which means that in a republic or democracy you will probably see at least a 30% increase in your base trade (depending on your land/water mix). Moreover, trade routes increase in value by 50% as well (100% if the other city also has Superhighways).

While these are very nice effects, they wouldn't justify (in my opinion) building them very often. But they have one very great effect: They boost caravan/freight delivery bonuses by 50% (in addition to the extra base trade which would factor into the calculation -- and might possibly make them worth building even without this last effect, just not as much so). The extra money gained from delivering a couple demanded caravans will usually pay for the rushbuild cost. Occasionally, the superhighway will turn a great payout into an extraordinarily great payout.

I almost never build banks unless I need the luxury boost. For money, the return from a caravan is almost always substantially better. Occasionally, late in the game, I might build market places for the money in a large city, but that is extremely uncommon and will only happen if it has no commodities available -- otherwise, only build it for the luxuries for celebration.

 

[VoidStalker]

Although I am not a complete newbie (even though I play like one), I have never really understood the whole caravan thing. I only have civ2 classic, and never understood why a city changes what it supplies and demands. What, for instance, is this solo-cycle mentioned? Everyone else seems to take it for granted.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Try reading through this thread. We eventually get to a moderately detailed discussion of trade. If you have more questions, it's probably best to ask them there, since it is more on topic to that thread.

Short answer to the question: every 16 turns, a city's supply and demand list get reprocessed, and the commodities the city supplies and demands can potentially change. The player Solo discovered this regular behaviour, hence the name.

 

[Rowan]

Wow, I am surprised that you don't build Market Places. If you have time , could you please explain that please. Thank you.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

It's rather simple. With a little experience, it is usually possible to get more money by building and delivering a caravan than you can from a marketplace (not to mention, you get an equal amount of science as well).

Marketplaces cost almost 160 gold up front, and will then pay you a few gold each turn. Unless your city is already producing a lot of taxes, you won't get that much gold per turn and it will take quite a long time to even get your money back. Once you discount your future earnings (having resources sooner is better than having them later), most marketplaces aren't worth the cost when it comes to getting gold.

Caravans, on the other hand, cost between 125-150 gold, depending on what units you have available for partial rush buying. Most of the time, you can get at least that much back when you deliver in a few turns, along with the science, and you frequently get payouts of several hundred gold (even more as the game goes on). What's more, this gold can usually come in a few turns (especially if you have ship chains set up), making it much more valuable than the money given to you from a marketplace. The trade route even gives you a few trade arrows. Then you can buy another caravan, put the extra gold into settlers or whatever, and repeat the process.

I typically build marketplaces if I need a luxury boost to make a city celebrate (the city might have little trade, or be suffering a lot of corruption). A celebrating city grows by a citizen per turn, and so it can produce settlers easily and have a greater base trade for deliveries by its own caravans.

 

[Rowan]

Thanks for that Professer Garfield.

 

[Major Advantage]

I used to fall for those market places too. It's one of the first thing the stupid adviser advices you to build, but in most cases they are not worth it, as the professor pointed out. Additionally, a market place might take a city out of riots by adding luxuries (and so making enough citizens happy to counter the unhappy citizens).

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Marketplaces are very useful structures. However, like everything else there is an appropriate time and place for them. They are useful in larger cities and later in the game when you are more concerned with enlarging your cities as opposed to building new ones. They are also more useful in republic and democracy when celebrations are so powerful.