Supply Lines

Discussion in 'Civ3 Conquests - Requests, Fixes, & Changes' started by G-Force Junkie, Aug 4, 2003.

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Should Civ feature supply lines?

  1. Yes

    51 vote(s)
    77.3%
  2. No

    15 vote(s)
    22.7%
  1. G-Force Junkie

    G-Force Junkie Old Vulcan Guy

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    Soldiers on any type of campaign should also have to deal with some sort of supply line. Many of history's successes, defeats, and standstills have been due to inadequete supplies. Operation Overlord was an example of a success for supply lines, while the invasion of Russia (either 1812 or 1941) was a main example of supply lines being drawn out too far to handle. The Allies could have reached Berlin in WWII by 1945 if fuel had been allocated to Patton's drive into Germany instead of Montgomery's Operation Market Garden. In C3C, you shouldn't be able to plown across a continent of forests in a campaign of war without having to keep up with food and ammo for soldiers and fuel for tanks. The same goes for naval vessels; you shouldn't be able to send a submarine out to sea and never have it return as it sinks half a fleet in the middle of an ocean. Hopefully this will at least make it into Civ4.
     
  2. slothman

    slothman Emperor

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    I though of an easy way to do this. Just have a bunch of "supply" units. Each military unit must be within a certain range of an "activated" supply unit. Each supply unit is activated if it is either within range of another activated or close enough to a city.
     
  3. sealman

    sealman Hater of Babylonians

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    I said something similar in another thread many many posts ago. So, great idea man.
     
  4. Benderino

    Benderino Loyal American Democrat

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    Check out a thread I made a while ago caled "Trading, Anyone?" (you can search for it, or it should be in the Conquest: Requests, fixes, and changes thread. It's kinda related, but you might be interested. I think your idea is great. There should be refueling stations for navies (think of all the islands in the Pacific that were used for such, even Hawaii!)
     
  5. Ian Beale

    Ian Beale YRH

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    i like the idea of having merchant ships delivering your convoys. In WW2 Great Britain had harbors etc.. yet that wasn't enough to get our supplies through. I like the ideas of merchant ships transporting goods over sea tiles. These could be attacked or protected by destroyers etc.... ?
     
  6. OldStyle

    OldStyle Chieftain

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    Supply is the most critical element for any army. I have never understood why any of the Civ games have ever implemented supply. This one concept alone would transcend the game into a much deeper and more interesting game. The AI would definitely suffer though.
     
  7. alpha wolf 64

    alpha wolf 64 Byte me

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    Hasn't the CIv-series always insisted that its not a war game? Unless that thinking changes, the military aspect of the game will be kept as simple as possible.

    However, i vote for suplly lines.
     
  8. warpstorm

    warpstorm Yumbo? Yumbo!

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    While Civ isn't a war game nor do I think it should it turn into one, I do think it could take a few concepts from the better ones (including especially supply).
     
  9. OldStyle

    OldStyle Chieftain

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    I know that Civ was never implemented as a wargame, but the depth of strategic choices would be infinitely enhanced if the simple concept of supply were taken into account. I wonder why no one has ever thought of implementing supply. Perhaps the AI would be too difficult to code, or maybe the designers thought it would be too 'wargamey.' However, conflict is the a prime mechanism in the game (true historically) and would benefit greatly from supply being implemented. My 2 cents, for what it's worth!
     
  10. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

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    Hi Guys, at the risk of sounding like a broken record ;), I'd like to rehash my 'simple' idea for supply lines!
    Basically, all units should have a 'stat' called 'Operational Range' (OR). Settlers, Early 'Spec Ops' and Late Naval units would have the highest OR; Workers, Industrial Naval, Late 'Spec Ops' and Early foot units would have the next best OR; Late foot, Middle Ages Naval and Mounted Units would be next, and Mechanized and Ancient Naval units would have the lowest OR! The relative and absolute values for OR would be modifiable in the editor, of course, and would refer to the number of tiles outside friendly territory a unit can operate! By 'Friendly' territory I mean any land covered by your cultural borders, all the cities within that border, captured cities that have a barracks and/or granary, Naval Transports, and cities and land belonging to civs with whom you have an ROP or Alliance! For land-based units, forts may also count as 'friendly' territory if it is connected, via road/rr, to a friendly city or land within your borders! In addition, airbases and 'Naval Bases' (possible new terrain improvement) should also be able to act as friendly territory for land and naval units (as appropriate)!!
    Units caught, by accident or design, outside their OR, would begin to suffer 1hp damage per turn-until they returned to within their OR!! This would give a defending Civ a FANTASTIC way to deal with the infamous 'SoD'! Just wait til the units get deep into your territory, then send fast moving units to attack and pillage any forts and connecting roads in the direction of their territory! Can anyone say 'Napolean in Russia'? ;) This forces an invading player to commit resources to the defense of these 'supply lines' thus leaving them with less to invade with ;) :)!!
    Anyway, just an idea, and one which I believe could be incorporated into the existing game, without too much difficulty!

    Yours,
    Aussie_Lurker.
     
  11. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

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    Oh, as an additional point, terrain should act to modify Operational Range, in much the same way as it does movement points!! For instance, marsh, jungle, mountains, tundra and desert, should all reduce Operational Range by varying degrees. Hills and Plains would have no effect on Operational Range, wheras Forests and Flood Plains should probably INCREASE it (living off the land, so to speak!) Also, like terrain movement costs, it should be possible to give certain units an 'Ignore Range Penalty' (IRP) for certain terrain types!!

    Yours,
    Aussie_Lurker.
     
  12. Kryten

    Kryten Smeee heeeeed

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    You know Aussie_Lurker, there may be a way of adding a crude form of 'supplies' to the existing game by simply making a few simple changes with the current PTW editor.
    (I love pushing the editor to it's limits and make it do things that it was never designed for. :D )

    Am I the only person in the world who thinks that it is a bit 'odd' that Radar Towers can make INFANTRY & TANKS fight 50% better in both attack and defensive situations?
    Why? :confused:
    Aircraft, yes. But other land units?

    So here's the cunning plan:-
    Instead of units fighting worse when they are 'out-of-supply', why not have them fighting better when they are IN SUPPLY!. ;)
    Change the name and graphic of ‘Radar Towers’ to ‘Supply Depots’!

    Now, if you are within two tiles of a friendly ‘Supply Depot’, then your units will fight 50% better, as they are IN SUPPLY.
    And if Workers use a new “Worker Supply Wagon” animation, you will have ‘columns’ of these wagons following your stacks as they advance…..wagons that need to be continuously built because they are used up whenever a ‘Supply Depot’ is constructed.
    Using these wagons as workers will also give the visual impression of supply columns all over the place, especially when invading and new roads need to be built by these worker/wagons as the army advances.
    They can even be captured from each other if attacked! They are after all just workers with a new look.

    I believe that mrtn is currently working on a new "Supply Depot" graphic (I suggested something like a couple of small triangular grey tents, one larger square brown tent, and a couple of piles of barrels & boxes....plus a flagpole would look nice.)
    I myself am working on the "Worker Supply Wagon" animation, which has an 18th century 'tricorne' hat in this preview....



    ....but I also plan to make a more modern version, with a lorry or truck in the background.

    Although ancient & medieval armies could surive for quite a while by simply foraging, this was certainly not the case once Gunpowder was discovered. So I suggest that these "Supply Depots" become available at the same time as Musketmen, and thus represent all the power/ammunition/shoes/new uniforms/replacement firearms/etc that more 'modern' units required.

    It's not quite as in depth as your suggestion.....but with just a few graphic & name changes, we can implement it NOW!. :)
     
  13. Echo 9

    Echo 9 Chieftain

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    Outstanding idea! It would add the realistic concern of supply line security... and man, would'nt SpecOps units have fun making deep penetration raids against supply routes a la Ho Chi Mihn trail? I'll be looking for these units to implement it!
     
  14. Kryten

    Kryten Smeee heeeeed

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    ....or Russian Cossacks getting behind the advancing Napoleonic French army to destroy their existing "Supply Depots" and capture their "Worker Supply Wagons". ;)
    And WW2 British & American Bombers hitting the German roads and "Worker Supply Trucks" in order to isolate the Panzers from their supplies (these 'trucks' would need a defence of 1 so that they can be destroyed by 'lethal air attack' of course)

    Ah, the possibilities are endless..... :)
     
  15. Ekmek

    Ekmek on steam: ekmek_e

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    and it looks like in C3C you can assign specific functions so the supply wagon will only make supply depots.

    But I long for Civ2 Airmovement in the respect that it could have been a way to make operational range move x number of spaces for y number of turns until you return to base.

    I know CTP2 this is do able, the question is as always can the AI handle it.
     
  16. thestonesfan

    thestonesfan A Client of Ron Kuby

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    Great idea! We may have to do some stat tweaking, but I think it would work. The AI is pretty good about using Radar Towers, too.
     
  17. yoshi

    yoshi Emperor

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    Supply should be in Civ3. It would add so much to game strategy.

    I have posted a new supply system that is highly applicable to the Civ3 engine. (It's a simple CIV-friendly system based in part on the Range field in the Editor's 'Units' window.)

    See the new supply system here:

    New Supply System

    Note: some of you may have already visited this thread. Forget what you saw. This new system has just been posted. I would definitely like some input from you.
     
  18. jeremiahrounds

    jeremiahrounds Prince

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    I like Aussies idea. But in addition a unit should be able to operate out of its supply range for a few turns at a time or be stuck immobile till you rescue it via getting a city near it or just disbanding it. Its just stuck. The reason would be beachheads =) Also naval units should be immune. You might make a rule that if an out of supplies unit is visited by a supplied unit then it has another move on the next turn. That would be very powerful for stacks though. But since the current rule is no supplies neccessary it cant be called out of balance =). Also a worker could turn themselves into supply depots. The supply depot lets units work in their operational range from it or they can resupply in it. the operational ange rule is more generous and makes play less effected.
    Also naval units should be immune.

    For example aussie said ok say an infantry can only got 4 from your border. I said ok let it do that but if it goes behind 4 give it 3 turns to get to within 4 again (for relocates/beachheads). So if you just planted them on enemy soil they would have 3 turns to capture a city. If you used the workers can turn themselves into supply depots rule upon landing the stack would make a supply depot that made it so they could work on taking the city indefinatly. If they failed they would be stuck until another unit that was supplied landed with them. If that happened they would have 1 more supplied turn. The unit that landed would have 3 turns still though.

    That would force some changes to war that have bugged me too.

    First razing is a pain in the butt~ and while semi realistic in rarity pretty brutal in common. This way you need to capture a city instead of razing it for the supply lines.

    Two it adds a dramatic element to war. History is full of rushes to supplies. In this case there would a new urgency to capturing a village for supplies.

    While its not 100% realistic it would add drama to the game.
    I think those rules would be a tad easier for the AI to manage then supply train units. And if workers can turn themselves into supply depots that give units the ability to operate within operational range then it doesnt effect play all that much.
     
  19. jeremiahrounds

    jeremiahrounds Prince

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    You could always mitigate the effect even more by saying:
    an unsupplyed unit cannot attack or pillage but can move and defend.

    keeps it from being a total bummer if your not supplied.
     

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